Bold Move: Airbnb's Shift Away from Product Managers

Hello everybody. So this time you see us, in case you're watching on YouTube, a different setup that we are approaching since we are both in Bern today and doing a recording in person for you today. Yeah, it's special. I mean, we're still not as professional when it comes to this setup. I hope it works well with the single microphone. But it's a different way to record standing here. At the standing desk. Oh yeah, absolutely. But I mean, let's keep it short and sweet, as we usually tend to do. Today I have a slightly interesting topic without preparation for you. I mean, I think for everyone who's around or has been on the social media accounts after the announcement or after the Figma config, there was a very hot topic that has been discussed. You might not be aware as a non-designer, but the CEO of Airbnb, we have our dog barking in the background, my dog, the CEO of Airbnb made a pretty bold statement on stage saying that Airbnb is moving away from product managers. Oh yeah. So yeah, I mean, I wanted to hear opinions, I wanted to hear reactions, just to also give a little bit more context. I mean, I feel like it's a quite interesting fact that he's actually the only Fortune 500 CEO who is a designer. So I think that that already sets a bit the stage and I think that also like what he said was that, I mean, he wants the company to be design-driven, as it used to be, right? Yes. He also mentioned or he referred to Apple, who also worked without product managers, in a slightly different and adjusted setting where it was more product marketing. For everyone who's like curious to learn about product marketing, we will also link the product marketing episode because we had a very interesting interview in the past. But yeah, I felt like even if it's slightly late, because it's a couple of weeks ago that this made the news, it's still interesting because we also had the discussion of AI and what AI does to the product manager world. So yeah, I'll leave you with that. I'm curious to hear what you think. I mean, there are a couple of questions that are coming to my mind or thoughts regarding this decision. And do you remember in 2018, when we were at the product management festival in Zurich, where we were listening to the talk of, I think it was the VP product from Google Calendar back then, told us how they approach product management, Gmail, exactly, Gmail, sorry. And the interesting part was that he told us back then that the whole team structure was for Gmail, 150 engineers divided in five teams, so 30 engineers per team. And guess how many product managers they had, or still have, I don't know the current numbers, but it was for each team, one product manager. And the quote back then was, before we hire a new product manager, we see how we can give responsibility to the team. So with that said, I think it's actually a quite interesting way to look at it, because from an organizational point of view, and also from the working style, they're shifting, I guess, towards much more responsibility towards the teams who are building the products. Yeah. And I think it's the question, right? Because there is a lot of overlap between the product manager and different functions. And the product manager role, I mean, let's be honest, it's also not something that is the same for every company. It's anyway a very fluid role. It's not, I think probably the tax accountant has a very defined role, right? And it's very similar across all the different organizations. I would reach the point where we're comparing product managers to tax consultants. No, no, no. Quite the opposite, quite the opposite. Because I think the point is, the PM role is very different for all the different companies. The accountant role, probably not so much, right? Like you can, I mean, systems differ, whatever. And there is no judgment in this, right? None of it is like, oh, this is better than the other thing, right? But I think there is a lot of overlap. The role itself is also quite fluid. So it comes down to the organization and how they work and what functions they have and how they're overall structured and problems they're solving, which industry, right? But in general, like you can say, a lot of the things when it comes to organizing PMs, the engineers, sorry, a lot of PMs also have a role similar to an engineering manager, right? So yes, if you enable the engineering manager, you don't need a product manager to make sure that the engineers deliver on time. If the designers also are enabled and drive the vision from a more user-centric perspective, a lot of PMs do that too, right? So I think it's more around like figuring out where the overlaps are and where you actually need a function. I'm just assuming here, right, that this is also where Apple said, okay, we need actually someone for product marketing. When it comes to how our, let's talk about iOS, how our operating system works, let's have the designers be the driving force behind the actual interaction. When it comes to the physical products, let's also have like the industrial designers be the ones who drive it, right? Because you don't necessarily need someone in between to do that. Hence reshaping or formulating the role differently to fill in the gaps. And the product marketing, like what do we need to build? What is like, what does the market require? How can we launch it? How do we get it to the people? How do we start validating that, building the brand and so on? I think that was what worked for them. It might not be the solution for everyone. It might not be what Airbnb needs in this case, but yeah, I thought it's a bold move. So I mean, we can talk about, we can talk a lot about the roles and all that kind of stuff. But I mean, if we, if we go one level up, I mean, what's the job of the CEO? I mean, the CEO needs to give direction. Exactly. He needs to give direction. He is formulating the vision. And I mean, the job of the CEO is obviously to, to make the best decisions and the best time for the company and for the people working within Airbnb. So therefore I would say, considering this, that I believe, and I assume actually almost would say, I know that the intentions were definitely towards the best for the company, which means to make sure that the company stays driven, design driven, right? To make sure that the high standards and the high quality that Airbnb has delivered over the previous years will continue in that journey. And I mean, we don't know what was happening within Airbnb back then with the role of a product manager. I can, maybe there were some issues also related to product manager introducing maybe too much, too much bureaucracy, too much processes, or even not, or maybe they were missing the design skills. So I can understand that the CEO made this bold movement if it was the best for the company. So I think what many people do and what I used to do when I was very, very junior was like not understanding these top level decisions, but you also need to respect that there are definitely some thoughts behind it. And I think like I've had a point, I've seen it a lot, right? And I mean, that's also why we're doing this podcast together, because the roles are similar to some extent, right? So I don't think the solution is for every company to only hire designers and forget about PMs, quite the opposite. But I also saw in a lot of organizations and a lot of companies that you have double work, right? And I think this is also like, this is also really where your organizations need to look at, okay, how do we like really split our capacity and our workforce across the whole product development process, right? Like what is the individual role of someone? Does it need like two people thinking about the flow and constantly aligning and maybe having these discussions? Or does it make sense to say, okay, maybe one is going to look at like regulations and all the legal aspects while the other person is working on the user flow and then they are like, right? So I think like, I mean, ideally in the triads that we always love to talk about between the engineering PM and the designer, there's like a really good equilibrium of who does what so that it expands on the other function and so that the collaboration really becomes beneficial and that there is not just like people filling a role for the sake of filling a role and for fitting a standard. Yeah. And I think it's also tightly, I mean, you're actually, in my opinion, touching also the whole point of workforce, right? I mean, who's doing what and how does the day-to-day business is looking like at Airbnb? For example, if we're talking about, do we need two people who take care of, for example, understanding legal stuff behind it or make business decisions? I mean, a good designer, in my opinion, should be able to do those as well, which, I mean, we talked about like that the roles are anyway tied together. On the other hand, we could also say if AI gets better and a PM can prompt design things, not in Airbnb, but generally, right? I mean, we don't know in which directions we'll head to, but it doesn't matter. Most important is that you as a company make the right choice. So maybe we will hear another statement in five years saying we don't need designers anymore and the engineers start designing. Probably sooner than five years considering how fast markets develop. And technology. But the conclusion that I would draw is simply that the product roles in general are fluid. And I think depending on from which perspective you look at it, like also on the individual employee, it just means being open to that fluidity. That's an English word. But to be resilient and to adjust, it's, I mean, we're agile with our products. We also need to be agile with our roles. Exactly. So those are the different skills that we learn. I think it's important to have a big diversity of skills in the organization so that you can also build on top of it. I mean, it's the same. Like I always look at it like from content design versus product design and so on. The processes are very similar. The skillsets are very different. They could work on both projects. Ideally you have a PD and the CD and they can learn from each other. So at one point you only need like one person because they can cover the process holistically. And then you have the experts that can validate, that can make sure to proofread or to give feedback so that you can elevate the quality over time. So I think it's more about like adjusting, not being stuck to a specific title, changing according to what the company needs, the product needs, the problem space needs. And I think it's not the end of any role. Yeah, exactly. It's not the end. But I still believe that especially in these days, being a generalist is very helpful. Yeah, absolutely. And the same is true for engineers, right? Let's not exclude them. Not at all. With AI, a lot of the repetitive small work could maybe be optimized, right? And you might rather want to invest in an architect, right? And it also tells you as an engineer that it's time to level up, right? Because I mean, if you're used to doing repetitive tasks, it's time to dive deeper, right? The complexity is waiting for you. I mean, it's not like that we're living in a world where complexity is getting less, right? I mean, it gets more and it's required to find better solutions to more complex problems. So is this the end of product management? Let us know. We're looking forward to hearing back from you. Awesome. Have a nice evening. Bye-bye. This was the Product Bakery. All links can be found in the podcast description and make sure to follow and subscribe for weekly episodes on all podcast platforms as well as YouTube.