Asking powerful stupid questions - with Paul Ortchanian, CEO @Bainpublic

Hello and welcome again, dear product people. So we had a short Halloween break, but we are now back with an amazing episode with Paul Orchanian, who is the founder of Bain Public and we talked about playing dumb, being a dumb product manager in order to introduce change and making sure that people start asking themselves if their decisions are the right ones or not. And now I actually know why you've always been such a good product manager. It's in the nature of being dumb, you mean? Pretty much, pretty much. Well, Alex, I think you spoiled already the whole episode. I would say, let's keep this intro short. Make sure you follow us on social media, LinkedIn, Instagram. And if you like this episode, Alex, what button should be clicked? Follow and share. Yes, let's get started. So from Canada. Hi, Paul. Hi, how are you? Nice. Thanks for having me. So Paul, we all know, I mean, you're currently the founder and CEO of Bain Public, where you're consulting or working with a lot of different companies across different industries from TrackTech to OnDeck Canada, Metro Media, and many more. But you've actually spent a lot of time also in Silicon Valley, where you worked from product management roles to design roles to tech and operational roles. So I think you've like really seen them all. Yeah, thanks for the introduction. I've spent 10 years in San Francisco working with small and big organizations, got into product there, really learned it the hard way. But I think that most of the things that I see... That's the best way to learn it. It is the hardest way. It really hurt at the beginning. And what happened is that I find that most organizations that I meet, they have this linear way of thinking about building products, which is not the right way, the way that most Silicon Valley firms will basically approach product. Oftentimes, it's very top down from a CEO telling everybody what to do. I think it's normal, right? But as a company scales, you get into this situation where various other stakeholders, notably sales and marketing, start influencing the direction of the product. A lot of people tend to think of product companies as the same as a service company or the same as a manufacturing company that oftentimes doesn't have the same notions of engineers who have to build things in order to deliver value to customers and etc. So a lot of them actually find the process of product management counterintuitive. They don't actually get into it somehow organically by just trying to figure it out. It's kind of like this hidden thing that somehow product managers like me have to unlock and show them that collaborative discovery and collaborative prioritization is an alternative to everything else you've been doing. But I haven't met a single company that figures it out by themselves. I find that as humans, we're ingrained in that way where somehow we always think that anything that we build needs to be built in a fashion that somehow because of whatever happened in the industry in Silicon Valley 30 years ago, people just figured out the right way of building software and nobody seems to know how to replicate it. People like me have to go into companies to help them out. I find that's interesting. Despite the fact that there's a lot of articles on product management, I meet product managers with an organization who've read every single book and they're still having a hard time influencing their stakeholders, asking their CEO where the strategy is, all these things. They're just prevailing everywhere. But I feel like there's also a bit like this ego part to figuring it out, having this great idea and vision and especially we talk about Silicon Valley. We're talking about a time where people came up with these amazing ideas in the garage. A lot of people didn't believe in the potential of the internet. So I do think probably a lot of people still would like to be those visionaries of having this amazing idea, something that never, ever built before and bringing that to the market. That's why maybe they think they stand above the processes or is this something that you see? Yeah, I mean, I see a lot of CEOs that think that they are the best informed people within their company about what the customer needs and they are the best position to drive those decisions and the priorities of the product. And you're right, everybody looks at these superstar entrepreneurs and thinks that it just came out of a lightning bolt and suddenly he showed up, Steve Jobs showed up and said, let's do the operating system as a GUI. But if you actually look at it, it's a process that was highly influenced by Xerox, right? Microsoft was highly influenced by IBM, basically asking for it to be developed. So there's always a process, but oftentimes what I tell CEOs is that you're going to spend most of your time doing everything other than making calls and product features. You're going to be stuck running your business. You have meetings with investors to fundraise, you're going to finesse your business plan, you're going to go on sales calls, you're going to talk to lawyers and accountants, you're going to try to train new executives, directors and team members within your team. You're going to have to shape cultures of your organization. So you're pretty big, but you're not going to be at that level where you start looking at the data, talking to customers and really trying to understand their pain points. But it is true that a lot of CEOs, because of their knowledge of an industry and perhaps they have identified a gap and that was the initial value creation of the MVP, but they can't sustain that. So they have to let go. And oftentimes they don't. And if they do let go, they often let it go to the wrong person. That person ends up being the VP of marketing or the VP of sales, mainly because that's another executive who happens to make it rain and brings in lots of money to the company. So the trust is there, but understanding what product management is, that they need a CPO or VP of product and enabling that function to exist in the company and empowering them. That's not intuitive to anyone I've seen. And I see two layers. One is the emotional layer and the other one is the process. I'm just wondering how a founder or how CEOs can start establishing a process that on one hand makes their life easier, but on the other hand, it's also in a way that empowers the people to build the right thing. Because as you said, there are many product managers out there who have read gazillions of books, but still struggling with convincing people. So I'm just wondering because it always starts at the top. And I'm actually very happy that we have a founders talk today to better understand what founders need to start letting go and also doing it in the right way. Yeah. It's funny because I always tell CEOs that you just don't hire a product manager and tell them what to do. That's the worst thing you can do. And that's the intuitive thing that most of them do. What you need to do is create what we like to call in the industry a product leadership team. These are the VPs of your organization, CMO, CRO, CFO, anybody who has an influence in the direction of the company, but their role isn't to make the decisions on the product. Their role is to design, build and nurture a product team. So part of their responsibility is to identify what are the high level strategies that are going to drive or allow enough of an anchor to the product manager to be able to propose new features. Are those strategies clearly defined as well as what are the processes we're going to use that we meet weekly, monthly, yearly, in order to discuss these strategies and define the roadmap and what are the tools the product manager is going to use? These are three pillars, strategy, process and tools that most organizations won't put in place. So product managers come in and they suddenly realize there's a lack of strategy, there's a lack of tools and a lack of process. Which one do you expect the product manager to tackle first? And finally, the biggest issue that I see is that this leadership team needs to grow cross-functional collaboration and trust. Sales teams might actually have very, very, if you're in a B2B organization, they might want the product to move in a direction that allows them to close the most business with prospects, but that's not to the benefit of the product or the organization. So if that collaboration and trust isn't there, you end up having them bully you as a product manager or you have the marketing team bully you or have the customer support team bully you, but you're just dealing with bullies all around. So it's important for the CEO to create this leadership team and give them a function. Our job is to, just starting from high level strategy, what are the strategy tactics that we're going to use to move this company forward? What are the metrics we're going to use to make ourselves accountable in terms of product performance? And then let's give these to the product team, give them a process. Let's meet every five weeks in order to discuss strategy, in order to discuss their next roadmap. And then let's put a quarterly roadmap deliverable, for example. And then here's the tools, and then give them real tools for product management, not Excel spreadsheets. Because usually what I see is product managers tell me that they don't have tools because they couldn't get the CEO to acknowledge the fact that they would pay for a product board or whatever else there is. On the other hand, they don't even have an analytics tool because the CEO didn't want to pay for some other tool to basically look at data. So you're kind of asking yourself, what are they expecting you to do then? But here's the thing. We have still more than 90% of startups who are regularly failing. And what does a founder need to hear to make a successful change? I think it's usually the founders who realize they've gotten into this, what I call the product strategy gridlock. They'll recognize it. It's when you hit a wall. It's when you realize that there's a lack of prioritization in your company that generates internal politics. The sales team is blaming everything on engineering, engineering is blaming everything on marketing. There is this lack of behavior and discipline in how we do things. Oftentimes, everything escalates to the CEO to make a decision, but those decisions aren't data driven. There's no actionable insights after the decision was made. So when these situations happen, the company realizes that they just don't have any momentum. They're losing steam. They're not growing. Oftentimes they're blaming the engineers, but the engineers realize that they're being whiplashed constantly by these executives. When the CEO recognizes that, I think that's when they come and see us and they acknowledge that they need something, an alternative and they weren't able to figure it out by themselves. And I mean, we talked about, obviously there is a lot of information out there and I think there is like also different models that people would recommend you to apply or processes that someone can follow, frameworks. Also, you developed a framework and you're writing a lot about it. So I'm wondering, how should a company best approach it also from their perspective? Is it enough to follow existing principles or to follow a framework? Or is there more to that to get to the right solution? Well, you know, what I see myself telling a lot of CEOs is you hired a product manager, they might be junior, they might be intermediary, they might actually be senior, but how they go about every single day, you know, do they have an agenda for every single week? What are they supposed to accomplish as a product manager that week? What about the next week? Oftentimes product managers get stuck within fires, you know, there's fires from the marketing sales support team, all these people, the engineering team is having issues. So they end up into these micro details, right? And I think that it's important for the CEO or the product leadership to at least put in place a process that defines week number one to week number three of every single month. You need to do a competitive analysis, you need to have a discussion with customers, you need to, you know, these are the deliverables you need to do as a product manager. And oftentimes, you know, we expect the product manager to figure it out by themselves. And most product managers, when they read all these articles in these books, they think they have to do it all in one day. So, you know, I wake up at nine in the morning, and I supposed to talk to a customer, right? And then from 10 to 11, I'm supposed to look at analytics. And then 11 to 12, I'm supposed to go have an internal discussion with the CEO on the strategy. And that doesn't happen, because you suddenly realize that your time is being sucked into all these other, you know, fires that any product manager has to deal with. So I think it's important to just give yourself like a defined, you know, I like putting things in quarter and like there's quarterly roadmap deliverables. It could be monthly, it could be however the company feels comfortable. But within that, that timeframe, what are you going to do the first third of that timeframe? What are you going to do the second third of that timeframe? What are you going to do the third third of that timeframe? And it usually goes into, you know, revisit the strategy, re-question it, are we doing the right thing, gather enough evidence and data to basically propose a few new initiatives that solve a bunch of problems, which is the second quarter of it. And then the third part would be when we go over with all the executives and, you know, have post-discovery, have a discussion on what should be the three or four items the engineering team needs to be working on the next three months, for example, and be honest about it, that that's all they're going to do. And then as soon as that's done, then you have to restart the re-questioning the strategy, re-questioning your customers and their problems and documenting it. So just giving a product manager a process, you know, this is what you need to do the first three weeks of any given months. And this is what you need to do the next three weeks. So this way you can, there's checks and balances, is my product team working the way I need them to work? Well, what are their deliverables, right? When was the last time we updated a competitive analysis? When was the last time we basically reviewed our personas? When was the last time we basically looked at the data in order to increase our conviction from one-sided bias to, you know, A, B tested, validated, you know, outcomes that basically could basically go into a feature release with a lot of success. To answer the question, it just comes down to what does a product manager do every day for let's say a quarter? As long as that's defined, I think the rest is easy because that empowers the product manager to, you know, meet particular, I wouldn't call them deadlines, but particular expectations, deliverable expectations that allows them to be both strategic and also tactical. And without it, it's just usually a gong show where everybody's trying to juggle too many balls at once. Yeah. And how would you generally recommend people also to then approach the collaboration with different stakeholders? Because like, I think as a product manager, right, having the process or having an idea of what are the things that I need to do on a daily basis, that's something people can get to on their own, or maybe they even know it. But you said earlier, product managers sometimes are like bullets by a lot of different stakeholders in the company. And I think even if you have like a product manager equipped with all the knowledge, it's sometimes like really hard to break down how the company works or how requests come in or how things are prioritized. So is, is there a way to also work towards that or make sure to like advocate for really following these processes if it's not coming from the leadership? Yeah, it actually comes down to like, just the human element of software development, which is, you know, you have to communicate, you have to collaborate, and you have to listen. And I think that most product managers don't give themselves enough time to what I what I like to do, which is collaborative discovery, where especially in the pandemic, we're a little bit Zoom fatigued. So we don't want to invite too many people in a meeting in order to discuss it. But I feel that it's important to not isolate ourselves as product managers, and, you know, just come up with all the strategies. And then, you know, you try to push it and you get your, you know, the executives are first time I hear this, and you know, it might be a good idea. But you know, I'm a little bit like, you know, taken aback here, because you just, you know, drop this on me. So I'm not going to acknowledge it. So everybody reacts differently. People have egos, they have different ways of working. So I think a product manager needs to collectively discover. So one thing I used to that there's a word I use, which is pre wire, which is a word that comes from McKinsey. It's basically it means the meeting before the meeting. And it's basically getting into a meeting with various stakeholders, just going over the strategies, the objectives, the key results you're trying, the problems you're trying to get just to understand the full picture and really get them to acknowledge what you're talking about and at least validate it. And so this way, when you get into a meeting with a number of stakeholders, everybody has already taken the time to listen to you, has provided their support, have presented their buy in on it. So it's a lot easier to move meetings forward. So there needs to be two elements to that those pre wire meetings, you need to have them individually with people, not groups of people. So I have to have one with the sales team, I have to have one of the support team and one with the marketing and one with the CFO, perhaps, just to make sure that I triangulate over every single detail that I've might have forgotten, and then just bring it all in, and then just invite everyone to a meeting in order to, you know, discuss all of these, you know, roadblocks that everybody brought up. So this way we can get to a decision. But the other part to that is the human aspect of listening. I think that product managers who have, you know, maybe, you know, like you can be, you know, extroverted or introverted, but if you're too extroverted, and you spend most of your time talking, people tend not to want to agree with you, because you just didn't take the time to listen to them. So, you know, how do you get into a pre wiring meeting where you can present a short to brief description of what you think from a point of view of like, hey, I have a set draft set of priorities, would you help me refine them? And just listen, ask follow up questions, pause a second, repeat what the other person just said. And, you know, say, hey, if I understand this correctly, what you just said is et cetera, just to make sure that the other person has feels that they've been heard. I think that if people feel they've been heard, they tend to agree more with you. So so it's the collective discovery as well as the listening. And that combination of collective discovery, listening leads to higher confidence in your ability to lead, which means that in the meetings, they will acknowledge and agree with you. But on the other hand, if you have a chip on your shoulder, and you're just the bloodiest mouth in the room, and you come in into a meeting, you don't let the other person talk, and you kind of isolate yourself and do all these big strategic strategic documents that you just give to the executive team, and one shot or the leadership team in one shot, they might just dismiss it. And that's usually because you missed the point you as a product manager, your communication glue, you got to work with everyone. And just not doing it means that you're not doing your job. And I love actually the meeting before the meeting, as you mentioned, because the higher you go on the ladder, so the the more management people you have in the meeting, the more they are afraid of listening to something new, in case you haven't talked to them, right. So if you present some ideas, or new processes of a new strategy that you want to apply or start executing, and they have never heard it before, they're definitely going to block it or ask many questions, and you will end up in a meeting that is not productive. Plus the fact if you haven't had the conversation, or if you had the conversation beforehand, and did not listen and just tell the people what you want to do without getting feedback. Yeah, I mean, that ends up nowhere, right. So I think applying the second part you mentioned the listening part to the meeting before the meeting is most important to also get the buy in later in that meeting where it counts, right. It's also a bit about like having allies in the company, right, like having people who yeah, who believe in or I mean, who actually see it as like a shared idea, and they're part of it, right. So it will be much easier for you to present something if you have more people in the room who actually already agree with you, or who have a shared opinion. And I think that's like where pre wiring also in consulting comes from. You have to make them believe they came up with the idea and and they need to be sympathetic to your proposal. So if they're not, then you shouldn't be going into an executive meeting presenting those ideas, because you know, you're going to be bombarded by unsympathetic leaders. That's not the right thing to do. So it's just, you know, I think it's political in some ways. But I don't think it's about getting allies or all but it's really about just making that the word collaboration is part of the company's DNA. And that you're basically taking five to 10 minutes to just have a quick discussion with them just to make sure that you know, you feel that questions were asked discussions have been had and the options were discussed, right? Yeah. And you also mentioned at the beginning that you need to build up this product leadership team at the end of the day. And I think product leadership means also the ability to influence. And this is exactly the way how you can influence upwards to your stakeholders to the top management by having the conversation listening to people and ideally make them think they came up with it by themselves. But yeah, overall, what do you think is an important way for a product manager to to look at in case you have not those processes? So let's say you are working with a company that is very stiff, so structured in a way that you have a lot of top down decisions. How can you play as a product manager to start shifting the mindset to a more product leadership mindset? That's the hardest thing to do. I mean, I think you can play dumb by playing dumb. I mean, you can try to get into every single meeting by being the dumbest person in the room. Oftentimes, and you get into if you're in that type of environment that processes don't exist, and you get it, you're being invited to get into meetings to listen to the sales team, basically pitch an idea for a new feature that needs to be built because of prospect ABC set it or customer support wants a bunch of bugs fixed, even though those aren't important. I think it's important to just go into the room with this ideology that you're going to be the dumbest person in the room, even though you have the data to prove that what they're saying is wrong. You can't just get in there and just say it's you're wrong. Because the second you start going defensive against everyone, because you see, you have the data, you talk to customers, you spoke to you looked at the analytics, and you know that there's enough evidence that that goes against what these guys are saying. So it's like, how do you get into those meetings? And act on what that means is basically just listening to people from a perspective of asking dumb questions rather than making statements. So short questions, why did you Why do we need to do this? I usually call them the what and how questions. So you always start with a what question. So what problem will this help solve? Connect the dots for me, which would be our investment of resources, what's our exposure to maintenance costs, right, the types of questions you would expect anybody to ask, and then take a take a pause for an extra second, listen to the other person's answer. And then, you know, instead of challenging, you can ask another question. And this is a how question. How does this align to the product mission? Why now? Why is this the most important problem to solve? You know, what's the impact that it's going to have on the company reputation. So you can keep asking what and how questions just to let the other people talk, right. So this way, you're not perceived as being an extremely defensive, arrogant product manager, you're simply the person who is just asking the questions that perhaps need to be asked, and which is making the other person reflect, perhaps out loud, maybe he feels he or she feels that they're being put on the spot. But the questions don't come in from a very aggressive perspective, they're just, you know, very, and you might have the data, and you're not going to pick it out, you're just let them answer it. And then you, you can basically propose, okay, here's what I'm hearing you say, would it be okay for me to, you know, spend some time with you just looking at some of the data for us to basically come to kind of an understanding. I think once you get to that level of every single stakeholder in the company feels that someone dumb is getting into the room, they're asking a lot of questions, because their dumbness is forcing them to actually, you know, ask very dumb questions. And those dumb questions are causing the conversation to basically open up from self conviction to, has this been validated? Do we have enough data for it, etc. Which then you as a product manager is like, let me help you go and get this data for you in order to validate or invalidate. Perhaps you can get to a point where people trust you enough to bring them into a meeting and say, I listened to everyone, I asked a lot of questions, I even gather a lot of data on your behalf to make this conversation an easy one. And here, here's where we're at, you know, and let's make a decision. So at least you can, you can, you can earn that influence capital that you need in order to build something. Now, once you build something, and it has success, that's where you start generating momentum. Because now that influence capital you have, which your stakeholders has, has basically translated itself into customer success and financial success. So now the capital that you have is both influence, customer success, and financial success, which allows you to lead the next conversation a little bit more authoritatively, I would say, rather than playing a dumb perspective. And, and then the more momentum you build, the more product features you release that add value to the company, the more you have, you feel like it's easier to have conversations with stakeholders, because they believe in your capacity to, to make their ideas happen better. And, you know, but your role wasn't to take their ideas as is you simply questioned it, validated it, and it comes down to how you work with every single department and engage with each one again, right? So I would love to, like, I would personally rather have like some big hired gun, like we are being public to come in and, and put these processes in place, but not every company does it. So if, as you say, if you're a product manager in a company who's dealing with these situations, just play dumb, you can't lose your job by playing dumb, you're simply validating stuff, right? Could you repeat the answer? I didn't get it. I usually have this thing where I tell I tell product managers to repeat the last one to three words that they said, just to get them talking more. And I'm gonna ask you exactly you asked me to repeat my last answer, because you didn't hear me. Is that what you said? No, no, I'm kidding. All good. I mean, he would have waited a long time to ask to rephrase. I just wanted to play a little bit. No, it's good. It's good. I mean, I think that the toughest one of playing dumb is when you repeat the last three words the other person said, and you just stay quiet, which creates this like uneasiness in the room. So the other person has to continue talking, right? And if the other person continues talking, if the other person continues talking, somehow you made them talk, somehow you made them elaborate, and you didn't have to do anything other than stay quiet. But you know, if you look at like hockey players, one of the hardest thing to do for a hockey player is to shoot the puck in between the pads of the goalie. Because if you miss, you look like you're just no good. But if you do, then you're a great player who had great skills. But it's like, it's one of those things that requires a lot of confidence, because the chances of failure are so high. So staying quiet, but after repeating the last three words of another person, what the other person said, and just like counting in your head, 1234 until the other person speaks. I mean, it, you know, it takes a lot of confidence. But if you do it, then the other people, people definitely feel like, wow, this guy's listening. Right? This is amazing. I can say anything I wanted in front of him. So in a nutshell, I mean, what you're also describing, like in terms of what a product manager should do with like playing them with like listening, and so on. That is also a little bit like the definition of a product manager, right? They need to have a certain level of curiosity, they shouldn't jump to conclusions, open minds, ideating, empathy for is it stakeholders, as well as the users, right? So I mean, in theory, we're just talking about the qualities also of a good product manager, the qualities of a good product manager. You are listening. I just used my trick here. Now, I mean, what I think is software development, I think it's a funny thing is that it actually comes down to human dynamics. And a lot of people forget that they think it's just about telling an engineer what to do. And I think the product manager needs to symbolize that humanity in a company. Marketing is basically doing its own thing. Sales is doing its own thing. Every department is working independently with its own goals and objectives. And it's normal for friction to arise. Sales wants to close deals and marketing wants for new customers to go through their funnel and engineering wants to create a scalable product, right? So there's going to be a lot of frictions. And the only person whose role is to basically be that human is us, right? Product managers. And we got to learn how to be human, right? And I think that this is sometimes where I talk about how doctors use the stethoscope as a way to get closer to patient. I have a doctor who basically every time I see him, I don't even get to see him anymore. I have to go through the internet, right? Like video conference. He asked me to do like a test, a blood test. And then he's able to tell me everything that's wrong with me, right? I find that so bad. But if I go see a real human doctor and they basically like make me sit down and they ask me to cough and they take their stethoscope and put it on my back and in my chest, I feel like they're listening to my body and they can tell me anything after that and I'll do it. So there is a human aspect that touch helps you get. Touch through stethoscope, touch through touching someone. I know you can't do those things in the workplace, but I think as a product manager, oftentimes you have to think of ways of touching others and making sure that they feel they're being heard. So this way you can convince them to do something, you know, that they perhaps would never think of doing, right? Like just imagine how a doctor convinces you to stop smoking or lose weight or do more exercise. I mean, these are, you know, how does he do it? He or she would basically just use the stethoscope as a way of making sure that you felt that you're being heard and then you'll listen to anything the doctor says, right? Well, I mean, we started at the beginning talking about the founders and now we end up in product management, but I'm just wondering, so also to wrap up the conversation, what would be the key message you would like to send out to founders and to product managers these days to make their place a better place? I think it's for founders, I would say that just make sure you surround yourself with the right mentors, especially if you're, you know, being accelerated through accelerators, ask yourself, you know, do I have a product manager mentor in my group? If, you know, a lot of accelerators, for example, will have, you know, people with a lot of experience in sales and marketing and et cetera, but never really a product person because those don't exist. They didn't exist years ago, right? So oftentimes if you're lacking that mentor, it's important to go and find one. There's a big community, international product management community, reach out to someone and say, can you mentor me? I really need some help here because I think as an entrepreneur, not knowing how to do product management, especially if you're building software, so your engineering resources are your most valuable resource and you got to turn their time into customer features that add value to the company. And if you can't do that in an efficient way that generates good momentum for your company, then who do you talk to, right? Talking to a sales mentor or marketing mentor will just lead you to drive your company into more customer growth or more prospects and more a bigger month over month revenue growth. But ultimately you'll realize your software is going to have a hard time keeping up to that growth. So it's important to just surround yourself with the right product manager type of mentors. So that's what I would tell an entrepreneur. As far as a product manager, I would say, try to look at your daily schedule and ask yourself, do I wake up every day knowing exactly what to do? And if I'm stuck in this routine of constantly dealing with fires, then maybe I should structure my day, not my day, but my week, my quarter, my month with some expectations to the leadership or the executives of this team that I will be delivering strategy. I will be delivering an outline of the priorities that we need to prioritize together. And I'm going to be doing some pre-wiring with them in order to get to that final roadmap decision-making. I think it's just having the right routines. And if you don't feel you have one, it's just like training, right? You go to the gym, doing it alone. There's a lot of machines, but you don't know what to do, right? So it's the same thing. It's like why somebody needs to give you a routine. Usually there's, they're called personal coaches or is that it? Personal trainers? I mean, it's the same thing. Find yourself a mentor who can please tell you what you should be doing within the first three months and then what you should be doing in a recurring basis, any given quarter, any given month. Well, I think that's a good summary. Thank you very much. And to all product people and founders listening today, maybe there was one or the other thing that might change your perspective on what you're doing right now. And I hope you feel inspired to start rethinking what you're doing. And if you need support, I guess, Paul, people can always reach out to you, right? Absolutely. We actually have availabilities for free mentorship and coaching. Just go to our website and grab a slot. It's 20 minutes, but it's enough just to get, ask a few questions and see how we can help. Amazing. We're going to link the website in the description. And other than that, Paul, it was a pleasure. Thank you very much for your time. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Thanks a lot, Paul. Thanks.