Finding Candidate-Company Fit

Hey, how's life? Well, I'm just getting comfortable on my couch, so sorry for moving around, but pretty good. How are you doing? I'm very good. And I am also these days very busy with reading a lot of stuff about hiring on LinkedIn, on other podcasts. And this whole recruiting topic is somehow in my perception very present. And I just thought, hey, maybe we can catch up on that today. I mean, I think it's not only very present, it's also quite relevant, actually. Present and pressing, I would say. I mean, there is a lot of people currently on the job market, obviously, with everything that the tech industry went through over the last couple of weeks. Let's lock in the years. And I mean, as you know, I'm also currently recruiting for some of the positions. Let's talk about it, because it's quite relevant. I was recently talking to a friend who's a recruiter. And we were discussing about, hey, it's at the moment very stressful. I mean, they are hiring a lot of people. And one problem they just realized is that it always comes to a point where you have a person that is very well in the first stage, second stage. And the closer it comes to the end of the process, you start realizing, okay, there are occasionally some red flags or misalignments when it comes to salary or general job expectations. And expectations on what is this job about? So what will be my responsibility? And as you know, I am a big fan of automizing things. And I was like, maybe I could build a little survey. So that is like a survey slash test work, something like that, assessment, so that companies can better figure out what kind of strengths people have and stuff like this. I'm just brainstorming. But this is not what this podcast is about today. But yeah, I just realized, okay, companies are struggling and hiring costs a lot of money. So what is the solution? And how can you avoid also to have like big expectation rising up during the interview process from both sides and then realizing due to lack of XYZ that you don't fit together? I mean, it's not only expensive. I think the one thing that I found always very interesting is that there is a ton of good candidates on the market. There's also a lot of shitty ones on the market. But there is a lot of good candidates on the market. And still, it's extremely hard to find the right candidates. When you look at overall data from hiring pipelines, nobody closes the role in less than multiple months, usually. And I'm also looking at it on my end, where I opened the role for a senior designer relatively early at the beginning of this year. And I mean, it's now we're six months in. And I still haven't hired anyone. It's obviously not because there isn't enough people. What is the key problem that you are facing? Since you're saying six months, are you too slow? Are the candidates not good enough? What's the issue? I mean, so in my specific case, there are different factors. First of all, when we started hiring, the focus was on first looking at everything that's coming inbound. Inbound, obviously, you have not the quality that you get when you start outreaching, when you start proactively hiring and approaching the candidates that fall in your target. In the beginning, we lost a lot of time and velocity by just reviewing all the applicants that came. And there you really have everything. You have people applying for completely the wrong roles, completely wrong backgrounds, no experience. It's crazy. So you just go for a ton of applications and you need to reject a lot of them. And then the final thing is actually just finding the right match. This is probably a good topic to talk about also because I had a recent story where I had an applicant and we talked a lot about exactly this topic. Another thing, just to comment on what you said earlier of going through the whole process and then suddenly discovering some red flags. This obviously also has to do with the nature of a lot of the recruiting processes. And it has a lot to do also with the time of the hiring manager. Speaking also about my day-to-day, I can invest limited time on hiring the roles. So there is obviously a lot of support coming from the talent acquisition team, the recruiters, it's my own team, and there is a lot of different people involved. And not everyone has the technical skill to assess a designer. They start sourcing, outreaching, checking different portfolios, talking to those people before they even get to those lower stages. So the first interviews are less technical. It's about, okay, is relocation an option? Is it a good fit for the company? How do they overall communicate? Is there maybe some cultural fit? And only then, as you go deeper and deeper in the technical understanding and in the technical rounds, you can assess it further. And it happened to me a ton of times that I had candidates where the portfolio looks good, initial calls went good, I talked to them, overall the right mindset. And then I started reintroducing a whiteboard case study of getting people into the office. I can talk a little bit more about it if it's interesting, but we have this case study. And then you're there, and it's like, okay, it doesn't work at all. And then it could be the environment, it could be just the way the whole thing... Too much coffee. It could be that day, it could be that they were not comfortable with the setting. Some people even told me, even prior to the interview, like, hey, the way I'm working is not that I'm just at the whiteboard. I need to take the time and think about it. So there are so many different factors that then can lead to the exclusion. It is also quite normal that you need to go through the process to identify these. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a hiring process. Now, is it expensive, and this is a bad experience for the candidates? Yes, probably, because you're asking them to invest time as well. I think there is a chicken-and-egg problem of the chicken-and-egg problem. I'm just asking myself now, from a candidate's point of view, what could I do better? As someone who applies for a job, first of all, better understand, okay, is this company a good fit for me? But it's not that easy, because the people that I might work with, or that challenge me, and I, of course, challenge them, will be later faced in the process. Because the people who do that don't face me, as you explained it, very early in the process, because you don't have enough time to talk to, I don't know, 100 candidates per week. It's something that I've heard, so correct me if I'm wrong. Where does it start, where does it end? There is a big lag, right? I'm trying to understand, okay, how do you want to get over that? Definitely, an important first step sits with the employer. I think one of the most important things, and critical things, is that job descriptions need to be actual job descriptions. They need to be clear, they need to set the right expectation. They need to explain what someone is looking for, and what the role would be. Unfortunately, that's usually not the case, because they're super generic, they all read the same, they all say the same, you don't really know what's going to happen in the role, and also what is going to be assessed. If this is given, the second step is for a candidate to really also read it, and then just blindly apply it to all the jobs. Then really also focus on, what is it that I want to be? Now, unfortunately, a lot of people are not in the position that they can really choose what they want, they're desperately looking for a job. That doesn't help, that makes things more complicated. But those things would go together, right? If the company sets the right expectation, if the candidates know what they want, it would be easy to assess, could there be a potential fit? And then I apply. You know what, that brings me back to what I said initially, which was a little bit of, I don't know, like unicorn thinking, like brainstorming, but maybe it's a good idea to make a little bit of an assessment at the beginning, and I'm not talking about an assessment to prove how good you are at your job, but rather to figure out, hey, is this person prepared, is this person interested, and is this person motivated to, for example, be a product designer in private equity, like for Moonfair, for your specific case? Because that's something, I mean, I have also interviewed many people myself, especially at the time at SumUp, right? And there are so many people who even, who I've talked to, who even looked up the website to get a basic understanding of who they're talking to and what the product is about, which is, I don't know, I think it's nuts, but I'm seriously talking about senior people. And I was like, okay, I'm not sure if I'm old school, but I would be too nervous to get asked a question about the company that I cannot answer and look like a fool. So, yeah. I think this is maybe something that you can assess right at the front. The problem here is even a bit the fact that, again, because it's not so clear from a job description what everything is, and the job market is what it is, a lot of people just apply to everything. And then you're invited to a call and that's where you show up, not really prepared because maybe you don't even know who you're talking to. It could get messy, right? Someone who's really job hunting might have a ton of different interviews. So, really keeping those things aside. I mean, with this being prepared and knowing the company that you're applying for, I have to say that, for example, take my company as an example. The whole space of private equity and what we do, when I initially talked to the recruiter in the interview process myself, I wasn't fully understanding or aware of how the product works. I used the interview to understand that. Because it's like, okay, I understand private equity, I understand overall investing, but how does Moonfair work? I mean, back then it was also a bit the fault of just the way the company presented themselves, because it was hard on a website to understand what it is. But that's a different game, in my opinion. I mean, if you are by default not good at expressing what you do, you need also to expect that candidates cannot know that. So, I think that's a little bit fair, right? But I think they are very technical. There is also just a lot of B2B businesses where you can't really just go and check out the product and you need to take it from the page. So, I think that's not necessarily always a bad thing. But I think either through an automatic process or in an interview, the more important thing is a candidate truly authentic and honest about everything that they say and are they transparent. And you might have someone who doesn't respond truly if they are interested in getting an interview. You might get a candidate that tries to read into the question and tries to answer it properly. It's important to have a psychologist or something involved in really understanding how does someone need to answer this. I think one thing that I also try to do in the interviews is to be extremely transparent on what I'm looking for. Extremely transparent also on some of the issues and downsides of the company to try and also get people comfortable in order to being transparent. It's not helpful for me if someone just gives me the buzzwords and tells me exactly what I want to hear. And that's where I will then follow up and try to work with real examples. You are now explaining what people who are hiring can do to make the interview process smoother, right? I'm just asking myself, okay, coming from the other side, what is a good thing that candidates can do to better check out how the company is ticking? What is your feedback there? Let me ask differently. What are you doing to check out if a company, not that you're applying, what are you doing to check out if a company, how is the company and the people working at the company ticking? I mean, I had enough interviews in the past. So I think I'm similar to when I talk to candidates. I'm trying to be transparent about what I'm looking for and I'm really always looking for the conversation to get a feeling of what a company does. It's a bit about digging deeper also in, okay, how did they work? What are they planning? Who are the people I'm working with? What are they saying? And then following up. Again, it's like just taking the other side of the interview and I think interviews should always be conversations. To then just like also follow up, see is there truth to what is being said or are they bullshitting me? Is it just like the classic catchphrases? Oh yeah, we're great at collaboration. Our ENPS is extremely high. We do a lot of team events, blah, blah, blah, bullshit. That's generally not what I'm looking for. And I think also here it comes down to the clear expectations. And I think just because I had a longer conversation with a candidate, mostly driven from the overall frustration of not landing the job. And I think in that conversation I saw two things that I think are important to keep in mind when you're hiring as well as when you're applying or even more when you're applying. First of all, don't try to optimize for everyone. This is something that I've heard in that conversation. And if I look back at a lot of profiles that I've seen, that is the case in a lot of other profiles and portfolios. So if I am applying to multiple jobs and I've got the feedback in the past, oh yeah, I didn't pick you because you're not growth centric enough, you're not research centric enough, you're not this centric enough, you're not that centric enough. You're not adding all these things to your portfolio because you have it and you just want to make sure that you check all the boxes. This automatically makes it more difficult for whoever is looking at the profile. And I think it will also not necessarily help you in landing the job that you actually want. So I think it's extremely important as a candidate to optimize your portfolio, your CV, your cover letter, your website, whatever you share, to really show who you are, what your story is, and what you're looking for and what your strengths are. Because like this, you're also automatically not talking to the people that would not be a good fit. At the end, you don't just want to work for everyone for the sake of having a job. If you are in the lucky position that you can choose, you would land the job that actually ticks also all your boxes. It's again this two-sided street. And finally, I think, and this is back to the topic that applying or finding a job is an extremely, extremely, extremely painful process. And it's extremely frustrating. You're getting a lot of rejections, most of the time not even with an explanation. You might send a lot of applications and don't even get an answer. I mean, that's just reality. And I think also here, the most important thing, I would say, is to not take things personal. Simply because a company is not hiring you, it doesn't mean that you're necessarily not good. You could be a great designer, a great product manager, a great engineer, but simply not the right fit for this role. And I think the one thing that might help here also in understanding this a little bit better, understanding the other side, is that, I mean, I've been in different positions. If you think back at Summer with 50 designers, I had a lot more flexibility in talking to people, seeing that there is great potential, hiring that person, either putting the person into the ideal role or, because there was potential, developing that person into the space where I need them to be. There is more people, it's easier to distribute work, it's easier to find the right spot for them. Now, if I look at my current team, which is relatively small, I have very specific needs. Because if I open one role and if I have budget for one role, I'm looking for something very specific. I'm not looking for the great designer or for the great potential in the person, but I'm looking for a different personality. I'm looking for a different approach or for a specific approach and a specific personality, which isn't the most inclusive way. I would say, okay, you should have different personality types in your company, but it's an important approach for me to hire the right person for the right job. So, you can be as good as you want if you don't check a specific thing that's important for me. Let's say for me, at the moment, one of the most important things is stakeholder management, communication to stakeholders and so on. I am going to be very specific in the interviews. I'm going to set the stage, I'm going to explain to you what I'm looking for, what is it that is important for me, and that's what I'm going to build the whole interview upon. And I would be like, okay, this is the role, this is what I am looking for. What are some of the examples that you can share that show me or that tell me how you work in those circumstances? So, in this case, I'm really assessing that specific case and I'm trying to understand how they can apply it and how they are fit for my specific role. Now, back to the example of what I mentioned earlier, I have a case study. Someone tells me, I need to take the time to develop an idea and to think about it before I can present it. Now, I value that and I don't doubt that this person can be or is a great designer and that they can come up with good ideas, maybe even better ideas than the one person that stands in a room and goes to the whiteboard with five people watching and draws it on the board. But, if I know that in my organization, the way people work, what I need is someone that is able to go to that board because there is a decision being made and convince people, I can't hire that other person. I would hire them if I could then place them in a different team where they have the time and where they have the right co-workers. But, as a hiring manager, I need to take all of these things into consideration. So, I think rejection in that sense is never really judging someone's qualities. It's just not the right fit. It's a little bit like a relationship. You can have a beautiful-looking person with great charisma, with great values, but it's simply not the right fit for someone else. And I think once you understand that and you start also applying that to you as a candidate of like, yeah, I don't just want the job. I want the job that is the right one for me and that's what I'm going to assess and that's what I'm going to tell. And, I mean, I spoke to a candidate today that was like, yeah, I really want to grow and I want to be data-driven and so on. And I'm like, yes, but honestly, our company with our user targets and a very small target audience, we will never be entirely data-driven. We're not booking the com, the can-I-be test, everything. So, is this the right fit for you? And only because they tell me that that's what they're interested in. That's not a rejection for me then, but I need to be transparent and they also should be true to themselves and say, okay, is this still the right thing that I want? Or is it the job where I would then be sad and disappointed after the first couple of months and then move on and look for something else? So, it's like, it's really two-sided and I think it's... I think the setting expectations and also accepting boundaries and certain circumstances that people are in is very important to make a job decision, both sides. Yeah. And I think that's basically it. Yeah, then that's it. I mean, if you have any questions, I know it is a massive topic and I feel like every time I have the time and I have the chance to talk to candidates and to also give more detailed feedback, it's usually quite helpful. Usually you don't do that in the process because you just give your yes and no and also the explanations are quite general. But yeah, if there's any questions, obviously reach out. We can either pick it up in another episode again or personally. But yeah, and I mean that I think also for everyone else who has topics for the podcast, you can send us a message and we're happy to discuss it. Great. Christian, have a nice evening. You too. See you soon. Bye. Bye-bye. This was the Product Bakery. All links can be found in the podcast description and make sure to follow and subscribe for weekly episodes on all podcast platforms as well as YouTube.