Get The Salary You Deserve!

So, LinkedIn, right, the best source for information nowadays. Your main social media. Well, I mean, yeah, the nine to five social media. I do spend some time also on Instagram looking at some dump. I'm so glad I deleted this app almost two years ago. Yeah, but... And I'm not missing it at all. I mean, I think I would probably have missed out on a lot of like the TikTok trends, because I'm like falling into this category where I'm too old to download TikTok. But luckily, Instagram is like pretty much copying all the content and putting it in the real. So I at least do see all the all the stuff. Interesting post that I saw. So I thought we definitely should discuss that as well. There's a new law, it turns out, in California that says that as a company, when you publish a role, you need to publish the salary ranges for that job. Meaning the salary ranges of the people that you have in the company, right? So it's not just, okay, we're willing to hire for 100 to 150K, for 200 to 300K. But really, okay, what is the range that you're paying to similar roles at the company? Okay. Now, that's a great thing, right? I'm all in for salary ranges. I think it's good to share and transparent, right? That takes out a little bit the guessing in the team or the secrets out of what everyone makes. It's funny, though, if you then go to the Netflix page, and I opened two roles now specifically in design. There's a senior UI UX role. The range is 50K to 600K. And there's a design manager role, and the range is from 190K to 800K. I mean, not sure for the people that are listening from the US, they're maybe more familiar with these crazy salaries. In Europe? We're not. I mean, 800K? Honestly, I'm not sure what's worse, right? The people who make the 50K in a company that pays 600K, sorry, or the 600K itself. I mean, like, well, I mean, the 600K, I think we talked a lot about the bubble, right? So the 600K is high, well, whatever. But I think that the terrible thing is actually the 50K. I mean, imagine you're the one making 50K, and learning that your peer, same role, makes 600K. I mean, that's, that's, that's just crazy. And I almost feel like it's to a certain extent less respectful to the people, right? Because, I mean, how can you justify also such a massive gap in the salaries that you're paying to the people? But help me understanding, I mean, is it the salary range for designers in general? Or are we talking exactly about that particular role you mentioned? Because within the design team, it might be possible that some people make 50K and some 600K. But if it's just for that particular role, I would say that's insane. So the role specifically is senior XUI designer, right? And I mean, I gave you two ranges, because the product design manager has a completely different range with the same gap, right? So it's definitely specific to the role. And also the way they describe it, they say the overall market range for roles in this area of Netflix is typically, right? So I think, I mean, obviously it gives you some range, but the senior is a senior and the manager is a manager, right? Big companies like this, and this shouldn't be about like talking about Netflix and what they do, because I mean, Netflix is also famous to like really pay top markets. Absolutely. So I think more than that, it actually comes down to how the salaries are made. And I mean, just to give credit, right? Jeff Humble, I think he's also fairly known in the design industry. He creates a lot of content, right? And this is like how I found it. And I think like also the way he puts it, right? It's really more about how you negotiate your salary, right? I think unfortunately that's what it comes down to, right? If you go into a conversation and your salary expectation is 80K, because maybe you're not familiar with the big tech salaries, maybe you're not familiar with what you get in the area. And I mean, let me be super transparent. When I first moved to Munich, I didn't know the cost of the market. I didn't know what it costs to rent a house in Munich, what it costs to go out for dinner, like what the overall cost of living is. I only knew the cost back in my hometown, where I was actually still living with my parents, right? So also that affects the cost of living. And I went into negotiations with the salary that I had at my previous company. So I could only go 10% up. And when I then landed in Munich, I learned that I was extremely underpaid for both my role as well as the company that I'm in and the market. And it's simply because as a company, why give someone more than what they're asking, right? So I think it's probably a conversation to have. And I mean, it's also a question that often comes up, right? Which is down to hiring and interviewing. Yeah. I mean, been there. That's the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear your story. I have actually applied in Munich as well for a company. But the thing is, I knew already how expensive Munich was. So I mean, I probably only got the job because it was so cheap. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And look where you ended, right? Maybe helped my career, right? You never know. But the thing is, I mean, on one hand, and this is now maybe a critical point of view on that, but on one hand, yeah, I can understand that you didn't know how expensive Munich was and how the salary was in Munich. But I mean, the question I'm asking myself is, should you have known? I mean, on one hand, it's understandable that you didn't know, but I mean, if you want a job and if you want to make money and if you want to live somewhere, I believe, I mean, it's also up to you to get this information. I mean, at least these days, it's very easy to get an understanding of how, maybe not back then, five years ago or 10 years ago, for sure, but times have changed. And I think, you know, it's like, I mean, it's like both ways, right? I mean, as a company, for sure, it's not the best thing to give you the minimum salary you're asking for if your salary level is higher, but it's also, in my opinion, the job of the person who's applying to at least get a grasp on what is going on in the market. Yeah, I mean, we can agree to disagree here, right? Because I do think as a company, it's also kind of part of your responsibility or like, maybe not necessarily as a company, but if you want to have a well-functioning team, you should pay fairly because sooner or later it comes out, sooner or later people 100% learn about it, right? And then you either lose them or you end up paying them anyway, anyway, what they deserve and you have an unhappy employee that doesn't trust you anymore because you were underpaying them while you didn't know. But yeah, I mean, definitely it's also down to the candidate, especially in an environment where we know it's not regulated, it's not fair, right? You can get from 50 to 600, everything. I mean, generally, I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean, at the end of the day, if you want to have a healthy team, I mean, the salary needs to be adjusted and needs to be on a certain level within the team and the experience, et cetera. But there was one thing I would like to come back that you mentioned is how you go into the negotiation because generally speaking, the negotiation part is, I mean, it's like, it sets the tone, it sets the future that you're going to have within the company. I mean, it's like, even if it's just in one meeting, one hour meeting, it has a big impact that will last for many years sometimes. So I think maybe for our today's conversation, we can make a deep dive into how to negotiate actually. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, do you have any tips? I mean, I'm self-employed, I make my choices. You put sales between us, right? I mean, I'm still just like rolling from one role to the other. Yeah. You have done this so many times that it ended up to the 600k, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. In Berlin. Compound effects coming through. I mean, I read a lot of books back then, how to negotiate, but I think it can help to also get an understanding how to negotiate, but the best thing to learn how to negotiate is to negotiate. Yeah. So, and I mean, this is also something that I got recommended by experienced people and that you can also read in books is, I mean, if there's a job that you urgently want to have, that you really want to work for, it should be the first job you apply. Rather, look for companies you don't necessarily work for. And I mean, you don't like to hear this as someone who's regularly hiring, but try and experience and see how far you can go and train your negotiation skills. I mean, yeah. But I would agree. Number one, I would say. I actually would say that this point is not only important for the negotiation for the salary, um, but generally when applying, I think, A, if you really want a job, you usually don't get it because immediately your performance goes down. Um, but yeah, it's also a training effect, right? Train with something where you're not like mentally attached to it. Um, if you want to get into Google, don't start with them, right? You will be super nervous. Um, you might not have the right experience. You might not have enough interviews. You don't know how to answer properly. You might be overwhelmed by some of the questions. Um, so the practicing is, is really the goal here. Yeah. But, uh, uh, maybe, uh, I have experienced something interesting because my second job I got when I moved to Berlin was pretty funny because, uh, I guess this job, no, it wasn't sum up. Uh, um, so I, I got this job via headhunter. So, uh, I mean, he reached out to me, he just said, here's a nice company in Berlin. So I went to Berlin, I liked it. And I had the, my last interview, I was on site and I had a conversation with the CEO and it was, it went amazing. And the CEO loved me. I love the CEO. And he said something that I didn't cut back then because he said, Christian, if there are any problems with your contract, don't leave, just come to me. Right. I mean, at the end of the day, he said, if you're not fine with your salary, we're going to find a solution or we make it more. So to be very frank, right. And when I was negotiating the salary, they offered me more than I wanted actually, which was great, but I could have still said it's not enough. And I would have gotten more without any problem. Yeah. So with ease, but, uh, yeah, I, I didn't cut it back then. And looking back afterwards, I was like, damn, yeah, you missed that opportunity. But honestly, I'm still glad that it happened how it happened because I've learned a lot. Yeah. Next time I'm not going to miss the signals. You, you always learn afterwards. I think that's always the interesting thing with negotiations. The second they accept, you know, like, ah, damn it, I could have gone higher, lower, whatever, uh, based on, um, which side you're negotiating. Um, but yeah, I think, I mean, I obviously don't want to send the signal right of like, okay, try and get as, as much as you can out of a company or, or don't squeeze it out. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, I've, I think you should feel like you got a fair salary. You should make sure that the company is like treating you fairly. Um, and I think it's more important to properly sell your skills, your worth, um, the value that you can bring to the company because that immediately will also get you to the negotiation of the salary that, that you want to have. Yeah. But, but let's, let's talk about that because I agree and disagree at the same time. So I think the disagree and agree. Yeah. Yeah. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see. So I mean, selling your skills and selling your knowledge is mandatory, right? I mean, good companies, the first thing they do is trying to figure out if you have the, the hard skills, so to say, to be able to do the job. And, um, something that is important to keep in mind is that every candidate, every candidate is doing that all of them. So to a certain point, you are all on the same page by trying to prove that you're good in what you're doing from a craft perspective. And, uh, and for sure, the next part is that people start looking on your soft skills, right? They see if you are comfortable with being uncomfortable, if you're a cultural fit, et cetera. So, but even there, I would say you are still competing with others on a similar level. Yeah. I mean, some people have better soft skills on one end, uh, worse on the other end. So, um, but what is making the decision for the company to hire someone? And I believe good companies are looking for the intrinsic motivation and the motive to start working for the company, right? So to make sure that the person who's applying has the same values as the company. And I think this is actually bringing me to the point to focus on the why, why am I here as a candidate? What are you getting out when I start working here? Because, you know, it's, it's often the case that people just go through the list of, are you good in Photoshop? Uh, we have done the, the coding exercise. It worked, yadda, yadda, yadda. We went through that. And now we have to see how expensive the person is compared to others. But that's the value thing, right? It's, it's like, really like what, what value can I actually bring also to the company, right? Yeah. I would, I would, I would, yeah, I would say this is the value that's expected from you. So what would I have to add? Well, I mean, what, what do we, what do we have? In the, in the why am I here, right? Exactly. I mean, the point is, would you like to hire someone who's, who's great in what he or she is doing, who has amazing skills, is a great communicator, but it's just here for the money or a person who believes, for example, if we look at, I don't know, a company like Google to make information accessible for everyone on the planet, right? Right. I mean, like the motive is, is so important. So to make sure there is a reason why you're applying a part or apart from all these physical external goodies and, and, and things you bring in, it's like the deep internal intrinsic motivation. And I think this is something that, that I would try to highlight as much as possible these days, which also includes that I only apply for companies I believe in. No, totally. And I think that's, that's super important because even with the 600k salary, if you just signed for, for the money and not for what the company is doing or what the team is doing, or because you believe in that, you will never ever perform at the level that, that would help the company. Right. But, but how about you? I mean, when, when you hire, let's say you have a couple of candidates who are from a, from a skill perspective, the same, what is for you the most important thing to make the call to hire someone? If you would have to make a choice? I mean, A, it would already be perfect if everyone would be in the same skill level, but we can put that aside. No, I think so definitely hiring for culture, both cultural fit, as well as the diversity that you want to have in the team, so that not everyone is the same and that you get different inspiration, different backgrounds and so on to contribute that, that is to some extent important, meaning the cultural fit, right? I mean, very easy, you're not hiring for an asshole. But also beyond that, okay, what, what are they adding to the team culturally and like also from, from their, their acting? I think that's, it's always important to look at how they can fit the broader team, the motivation. And I think for the motivation, definitely also the background story of where are they coming from and how are they coming here? Like what was their trajectory? Why are they willing to keep the same title, take a lower title? Why do they want a promotion and so on and so forth? Because that's really also shows you a little bit the motivation that you just mentioned. Are they coming from an agency and switching to in-house? Did they have multiple different experiences in-house and not in-house? Did they freelance? What, why are they now applying for the company? And what was the thing that A, got their initial attention and also what would make them sign in the end, right? Because I think there are two perspectives, right? Because on one hand, you can say, Oh, there's a person coming from agency, great fit, but we are afraid that this person will not fit into our company because they have never worked in a team. But on the other hand, you can also say, Hey, this person is super, super motivated to make a change and really wants to work within a team, right? Yeah. And that's the motivation again. And more than the motivation, also the mindset. And I mean, the two things probably go a little bit together. But, and I mean, we talked about this a lot, right? The mindset is more important than the hard skills, right? I mean, we talked about the, okay, they have the right skills. So that was our assumption, but I'm sometimes willing to hire someone with fewer skills, but the right mindset, because I know they want to learn, they have the right motivation. They have the right angle, perspective, and so on, that the hard skills are actually not the most important things. If you know a tool or if you don't know a tool, you can learn it. I mean, there are some things, especially in the design. And I think this is where design and product might be a little bit different as well. When it comes to the fundamentals of design, it's really hard to learn it as a senior if you haven't learned it before. And if you have like some fundamental issues when it comes to principles, contrast spacing and so forth. But I think everything else can be learned, but the attitude of how you approach that and how willing you also are to learn and to listen and to ask questions, right? I think the worst people are the ones that think they have the answers to everything. The best people are the ones that can ask great questions, both on the PM side, as well as on the designer side, and probably even under the engineering side, right? But yeah, I think that's kind of how I would make the decision. And it's never black and white, right? There's a ton of different factors. And last thing at the very end is also a little bit the gut feeling. I was great that you mentioned that because I think to also round it up, I think being authentic is the most important thing at the end of the day you can do, right? And there's this nice saying, I'd rather be hated for who I am instead of being loved who I'm not, right? So, and I mean, if a company doesn't like you as the person who's applying, even though you have been authentic, great, be grateful because it's not the right company for you. And also the other way around, right? If an applicant says, you're not the right company for me, it's the best thing that can happen to a company if both sides are straight and clear on where they stand and to figure out if there's a match or not. Yeah. And with that, I think the only thing that remains to say is good luck for everyone in their negotiation and interviews, but also on a company side, make sure to keep, to be fair with your employees, right? I think that the payback will be massive. The retention will be big, the satisfaction will be big. And I think the more honest you are with the people and the more you care from a deep perspective, the longer you can keep them or the better you can also advise them when it's a good moment to take the next opportunity and leave, right? I think it's working with humans. So be authentic and press the follow button for more episodes from the Product Bakery. We see you soon, Stronky. Have a nice evening. Bye-bye.