Managing Performance Issues

Hi Alex, how do you feel today? Christian, I'm always feeling amazing the second we dial into this call, you know that. Yeah, the energy rises, right? Yeah, it's a mix of like seeing your face, of like hearing my own voice in my headphones. I don't know, it's just like always this beauty. Yeah, I mean it's like a relaxing night with a cocktail, chilling mode and then just having a good chat. Yeah, yeah, indeed. Only the cocktail is missing today. Yeah, damn. I mean, it's still on our agenda, but I mean, I am off to Italy and once I'm back, we definitely need to do that in-person thing. Actually, this makes me think one thing that I wanted to tell you in the podcast. On the weekend, I've been with, well, we don't make names, but I've been with a founder of a design agency. Actually, he also has a podcast where he invited me to, so I will be a guest, a podcast guest myself in a bit. What? Yeah. You are betraying the Product Bakery? No, yeah, but as a guest. Actually, I'm even invited to my, that's funny, to my local radio station on Saturday. So local, back at home in Italy. So I have to do a proper radio interview. I hope this podcasting stuff helped a little bit at least to get me ready. What are you going to talk about? Well, I think the general question is just like, they want to portray people from the town, right? And I mean, as I left, it's a little bit like, okay, my story, my development. I think one of the journalists there, through contact, she got to know me and when she heard about like my not so traditional background, like not having been to university and being done more of a professional school to get into design. And the fact that my teacher back in the days told me that I will never be successful if I don't go study and I will think of her. She's like, yeah, why don't you like rub it in her face and actually come to our radio? Okay, got it, got it. I was just wondering, what do people in Italy talk about on local radio? My first impression was, what is better, Lamborghini or Ferrari? But it seems like there's more to talk about. There's more to talk about. And I actually find it quite interesting to have the opportunity to talk about product design and design strategy to people who have zero idea about it, right? I think that's the interesting part. Like if I think back home, the second you say design, like also my friends, the second you say design, it's about aesthetics, right? Oh, okay, so you make like flyers, stickers. Maybe even furniture or stuff like that, right? That's also what many people believe. Or that, or that. But I think fewer people do actual furniture design. I think that's still like kind of one of these, oh, wow, okay, you're a designer. I think unfortunately, a lot of the times, like in places where tech isn't like really very known, like you're like easily like that freelance guy that everyone knows that can use like Photoshop a little bit, right? And I think like having a chance to try and explain, I hope I can do a good job at simplifying it, but trying to explain what design within a product company is, and the impact that design actually has on the overall direction and strategy. I think that's something that I'm actually quite excited about, because we rarely talk about it. But that wasn't the story. Exactly. Back to your drinks you were having, right? Yeah. So, I mean, we just wanted to catch up a little bit. I mean, it's a connection that happened online, right? Through Freelink, as you get to know this guy. I think I've been like commenting on some of his posts. And we started like to, every once in a while, exchange on some professional topics. And as we've been like sitting and talking about literally everything that came to our minds from like the current economical situation to cryptos, whatever, you know, like the classic topics that like tech small talk. And we also talked a little bit about like this whole, also the classic topic that always comes up, like this remote work thing. And as we talked, there was actually, people in Berlin are just too nice. There was this guy sitting like next to us, like on the table, and he was there with a stroller and his kid, and he was like, obviously alone. So he was following our conversation. And then he was like, oh yeah, I mean, if I may interrupt you, we're working like in a hybrid way. And I have like two engineers, he's like a tech lead in a biotech company. And he has like two engineers that with this whole remote working, like their performance went completely down and they completely suck. And I think like his question was how to best tackle this or how to best solve this. So, I mean, I'm happy to share like the discussion that I had, but I'm also curious what you would say, right? Because I think, I mean, we talked a lot about remote, non-remote, I am usually a bit like black and white and it's like either or, I think it's very hard to like mix the cultures. But then still, we all constantly end up in like these remote situations. And I mean, I could see myself also bumping into that issue. And I also had this like at the very beginning where there was this guy who was just like traveling around the world. I mean, what's your recommendation? I mean, first of all, I have to say I'm a little bit tired of these conversations. Fair enough. In general, right? Not that I don't want to talk about it with you, but I think it's a topic that has been discussed many times by many people. And it's like a hard to answer question. I think it gets interesting at the point where you add a certain aspect to it that we wanted to cover since a longer time in the podcast, which is personal development. Yeah. So I think we could come somehow combine it. Yeah, but. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that's interesting because like at the end. And I mean, I can also cut it short, right? So that we don't go too deep into the whole remote topic here. Because I think the key thing that I kind of like the conclusion that I came to is like at the end, it's about performance, right? Because there's always like this struggle. Okay. I mean, if I tell someone that they can go and work from everywhere, I can go to the next one and tell him, no, you need to stay in Berlin. But at the end, there is like one thing that's important at your job. And that's the performance. Exactly. And the better you do it, the less critical are the things like, where do I work? How often do I have to come to the office? How many hours I work? I think, did you watch the suits, the show? Quite some time ago. Yeah. I mean, it's for me as well, but there was like Harvey Specter, like this top guy, this top lawyer, right? One of the best closers who said he worked his butt off so many times until he became a senior partner that no one is giving a shit anymore when he comes to the office or how much he works, right? Yeah. And I think, I mean, we're talking about a TV show and I don't know, a lawyer who makes like a couple of millions per year. But I think it counts also to you as engineer to go back to your question or product person. At the end of the day, you have to deliver, right? And if a tech lead or your supervisor realizes that your performance goes down through a certain time frame, whether you are at home or not, doesn't matter. I mean, it's valid feedback, right? So there must be something going on and there must be a reason why your performance has dropped. Yeah. And there's personal reasons and stuff, right? Yeah. Someone lives with their partner and they have a lot of arguments during the day and they cannot really focus. I mean, sometimes offices also get to escape. Yeah. I think at the end, as a manager, it's like also your responsibility to make sure that your employees can be successful, right? I mean, we can, I think like one of the books that I always like almost carry with me, I read it a couple of times. Like a Bible. Yeah. But I mean, I think there's a lot of truth in it. It's like the book about radical candor, right? I think, I mean, you need to come from a place where you care about your people and you need to care so much that you want the best for them, right? So you also need to give them the feedback. And if for you, working from home doesn't work and your performance sucks, that means that over a longer period of time, this might end to you either like not getting the promotion that you should have or potentially being laid off or, I mean, a lot of different things could happen. And I think here it's really down to having this conversation. It's not about the remote work or the not remote work. It's about, okay, what do you need to perform? What can we do? And if I see that working from home or working from the beach doesn't help you, then coming from a point where I care about you and where I want you to be successful, my recommendation is to come to the office or to, like find alternative ways, right? And I think that's then, I think bottom line, the solution to also bypass a lot of this remote, non-remote, remote, why can he and I not, and so on discussions down to like really, okay, it's about the people and it's about the performance of them. It's about caring for the people that you work with to help them achieve their goals and therefore like give them the appropriate feedback to get them there, right? I like how you broke it down, right? I mean, at the end of the day, it comes down to the performance. So that's the first step. And the next thing is radical feedback, radical candor, candid feedback, let's say it like this, is crucial to get there. But I would like to add one more aspect, which is being approachable as well. And with being approachable, I'm talking about both sides, whether it's the employee or the supervisor, because the only way a good communication can happen is being open to feedback and being honest about it, right? So it's important for me as, let's say, employee who was traveling around the world or who has, I don't know, a partner at home where you're having a lot of arguments or maybe your wife is sick or you have a newborn child or whatever, it's important to communicate it, right? And don't try to play the strong person who doesn't need any help and who will get over it. I mean, that's usually, I mean, that's when the shit starts, right? So and also communication is key, but also as a leader, it's important to give people space, right? So if someone comes to me and says, Hey, right now I'm in a tough phase, it's maybe not necessarily helpful to directly tell them, Oh, you have to change that or this will happen, right? So also giving people the time to solve their own issues. And I think in general, in general, we're never telling people what to do, right? I think, I mean, we had this a lot of time, like it's, it's really not about like telling them you need to do X, Y, Z. But yeah, I mean, I do also agree with what you're saying. At the same time, I mean, coming back to the performance itself, yes, there is time, but there is also a limited timeframe, right? I think sometimes people expect companies to, I mean, it's, it's, no company is a volunteering organization, right? 100%. Like the same way as I'm measuring my people, I'm being measured by my manager. And they also look at the performance of my team, right? It's as much as I care and as much as I love everyone, at the end, it's, it's a job. You make it for the money. Yeah. That's the point, right? If you wouldn't get paid, you wouldn't be there. Yeah. Well, and also the people that are there, right? I mean, of course you choose, like money is not everything. I, I mean, I wouldn't. It's about the energy exchange, right? So you give your working power as energy and return, you get energy in form of money or maybe, I don't know, a couple of hugs, whatever it is. Yeah. It's about an exchange of energy from both sides. And that's also where people, that's also where, where I don't like to sit here sometimes of companies where it's like, oh yeah, I mean, you need to do it for the mission. And because you believe in the mission and we pay you shit. And then one point, no, that's, that's like, that's wrong. You get my time, you get my experience, you need to show the value and the money. Unfortunately, in a world that's like run by money, where you have to pay your bills, that's how it works. And if like, just for your vision, if I'm not like benefiting, why should I put everything in? 100%. And you know what the connection is to that? It's a lot about the self-worth. Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. About your, as an employee, it's about your self-worth. And if you're realizing you're spending time, time and energy into a company and you're not getting in return what you expect, like more money, a promotion, whatever you like, or whatever the company offered you before, then again, there is a mismatch within the energy that is in exchange. And therefore you have a problem. So. Yeah. And the same is true for the company or for the employer or for the manager, right? I mean, if you have people that are good and you want them to stay around with you, then like good words are not enough. You also need to pay them correctly. You need to constantly measure the market. They can measure the market, but you need to also be willing to then pay for what they are worth in the market. Otherwise you will lose a lot of good people. But you know what the problem is with everything we're discussing right now? It usually ends up in very emotional conversations from both sides, both sides, by the way. So maybe you are a company that has measurement processes and 360 degree feedback, whatever. But even though there's always a chance for being wrong or not covering everything that an employee does or the other way around, right? So you as an employee, you're just realizing the company is not giving you what they have promised. So what is the best way to avoid those situations? And something that I have learned is look into the contract. There is a reason why you have a contract and you make a contract. And it's important to put stuff into the contract that is very important for you, especially as an employee, because the employers do this anyway, right? They say you have to work 40 hours a week. If you do over hours, it's covered with the salary. Just to quote a random contract that I've never signed, by the way, which I always did, but you know, right? It's the average contract in Berlin, I guess. The average contract, right? And employers making sure that their needs are covered. So let's say you start for a company and it's very important for you to, I don't know, after one year, do remote work or get a promotion or whatever is important for you. What's stopping you from putting it into the contract? Or let's say you become product manager for one team and at some day, oh, hey, do you want to take over another team? Oh, here's another team. So you're doing a job of three people, but you're not getting the salary. So again, energy and mismatch. If you like doing it, it's fine. If you don't, it's not. But I think the contract is such a crucial part that many people underestimate. How much of those things have you ever managed to get into a contract? Like I have to admit with as much as I try to be fair with people, if someone wants to have like in the contract a promotion after a certain amount of time or a salary after a certain amount of time, I wouldn't put it in. It depends. So I have added this to almost every contract that I'm closing right now as a coach, because I'm clearly stating what I want and what I don't want and what I do and what I don't want to do. And this is clearly covered. So, and that's something that I've learned because even as an employee, so some people prefer a fixed salary increase over time. I mean, not everyone is like you and wants the 50% raise every year, Alex. So, and some, uh, by the way, I mean, tech is a very special industry. Uh, I think in, in let's say the car industry or in other industries, you have like this average percentage that you usually get every year. So, and these things are sometimes also written in the contract. So you can ask for it. I'm not saying you have to write every, uh, every detail into the contract, but if there are key things you would like to have, you need to come to an agreement that, uh, is later on measurable or at least people will remember. Yeah. But, but I mean, I see where you're coming from. I think it's kind of tricky when you also operate like with standard contracts. Like I could never, for example, promise someone a fixed salary increase. I mean, that simply wouldn't work also because it doesn't fit our framework. Um, so we're transparent there, but I think it's like more than that, right. It like, and at least that's like the way I see it. It shouldn't come down to a contract. It should come down to my manager valuing me and me valuing the people. Right. That's right. And if we sit down and we have a conversation, I mean, maybe there's misalignment, right. But then still, like you tell me what you're like, where you see your value, like what's the, what's the deal breaker. If you want to, like you definitely, like you want to be in the company, let's, let's assume that you want to, you want to work with us, you believe in, in whatever we do and so on. What is it that is on the table, either from conversations with other companies or from conversations like with your, uh, with your peers? What, what is missing to actually make you feel valued and comfortable in the job that you're doing? Right. Because if I also want you to stick around, if, if, if you're, um, someone who contributes to the team, I am willing to, to match that usually, or if I cannot, I think like I can also have a very open and transparent conversation with you, um, to tell you to take that other opportunity if it's on the table, um, or, or to go for it. Right. I think it's, I mean, at the end, it's also the transparent communication. The second one needs to come to me and be like, okay, but it's, it's in the contract. Then probably also there, like it's, it's not transparent enough or, I mean, maybe it's, it's easier to, to just say, okay, that's, I know what I got. But at the same time, I mean, I'm hiring you after I spent maximum three hours with you. So I have zero idea of the actual work and collaboration that, that you will bring to the table. Right. And of course there's a certain understanding that you can build in an interview in terms of, okay, what is like, what drives the person and, and where is their mindset and so on. Um, but at the end, I also wouldn't be able to then based on that, like already the initial salary is always kind of a big, uh, guess, but that's like, okay, you have expectations. I can either meet them or I'm not offering you. I usually rarely make offers that are below someone's expectations, or I would already bring it up at the beginning of the conversation. Right. Because like, if that's what you expect, if that's where you see your value, I don't want to value you less. It's more of like, okay, for me, that price stack comes with certain, with a certain level of experience and responsibilities. If you don't match that, and I'm trying to become also more and more transparent around this, even in interview processes, if you don't match those expectations, then we simply don't make an offer or we're super transparent of like, okay, that that's why we don't believe that it falls under this. So we would kind of give you another title or something. Um, and man, but that's, that's then also kind of the, the final word. I think with interviews, it's just like extremely hard, but once you start, you get to know the person you get to know, like you also know how much they, how much you're willing to pay for them to stay. We are jumping now between different scenarios, right? One is you are employee and you're already working for the company. And the other one is you're hiring someone new. Yeah. Yeah. Um, because the contract happens at the beginning, right? So you're right. I would, at the beginning, I have to decide what I do with you in every year, which is. Okay. I want to, I want to make one, um, uh, correction or addition here. It's not only about the contract, but it's about putting agreements into written form. So let's say you are, you are an employee, you have your yearly review. And for example, you decide that, I don't know, you want a company's phone or something else I can tell you, but let's take the company phone because it's something, a very easy thing. And I don't want to know how many lawsuits fights in companies have happened because of a company phone anyway. So let's say you want it. And I think it's good to bring this down into written form. Even if it's an email where you write the supervisor or the supervisor writes you by confirming that by either hitting certain goals or directly, you're going to get this, this phone. I think it's very important to have something written down because otherwise it ends up in, you have said this and you have said that, and then it's mismatch and there is a mismatch. The written form is super important. Like for, and that's what I wanted to highlight, right? Like you, like I need to make sure that we have a clear documentation of the conversations that we had, the things that I told you, the things that didn't go well, the things that did go well. And I think as an employee too, and ideally both versions are shared. So that we also agree on the notes that we took, right? As far as I remember, I mean, I myself remember, I think also you, sometimes it happens that things are just discussed verbally and then you end up in being frustrated of them not getting matched, right? I think we can write a book about it. And I think here it's important to just note it down. Yeah, no, no, absolutely. Written form rules. That's, I mean, we talked about legal departments. Yeah, exactly. But I have been also in the past, very naive about it sometimes. And at the end, yeah, I was the one who, yeah, got away worse. Christian, we didn't talk about personal development. Not really. I mean, we're trying to be below our half an hour mark. So I would say we can pick it up. Next week again. So make sure to click the follow button and subscribe. So you will also get the newest episodes right into your favorite podcasting app. And any last words, Christian? And no more to say. Amazing. Then I wish you a beautiful day. Let's try to have the next session with some cocktailino. And let's talk about personal development. If nothing, crazy comes. The thing with the radio is nobody would understand it because I mean, I would probably even speak my local language. How many Italian listeners do we have? Like 1% maybe? I would need to check the numbers. But wait, it's not in Italian. It's people from Italy who, yeah. But it's in a German dialect. Hmm, terrible. Target audience, 400,000 people. But still, 400,000 people that will hopefully... I'm not even sure if they are the target. No, but that's the thing. I mean, there will be a lot of like grannies sitting at home listening to the radio and be like, what the fuck is this guy talking about? Like user experience. But if one granny learns about a new digital job, then I'm happy. You made this world a better place. Yes. Let's change. Let's start granny by granny. Christian. Alex, all the best. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.