Branding Strategies for Personal and Corporate Identity

Hello Alex, nice to see you again. Servus. I see you are in the German chill-out mode for today. I mean, it's later than our usual recordings. That's true. It's dark outside, which for Berlin at this period of time is a crazy one, right? But we won't stop shipping podcast episodes. No, we won't stop shipping podcast episodes. That's true. We readied it for too long. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But we said to ourselves, we this time stay on track and get rid of this loosey-goofy attitude. Yeah. I mean, I'm happy that people still listen to us, right? I mean, I didn't imagine that we got so much feedback after a long break to still get the positive messages. So yeah, thanks for being consistent listeners or even just like once in a while listeners. I don't judge. Yeah. But here's the thing, Alex. I have a topic in mind to talk to you about because we've recently discussed a lot about building own products, side projects and all that kind of stuff. And when I look at my current friendship circle, I see many people starting their own businesses, whether it's coaching or building their own products. And one topic we are always stumbling upon is this whole thing about branding in general and especially personal branding. And since you have been around in design for a long time and also have done many branding and rebranding projects, I just wanted to pick up this topic. And I don't know, maybe you can coach me a little bit and share some insights that I don't know or maybe have forgotten about. But yeah, how do you approach brand creation in general? Let's start broad. What is branding? I wanted to actually ask you exactly that question. What is branding? What is branding? So I asked first. So therefore, please go ahead. Damn it. You jumped me on this. Because I think it would be interesting to see because I think there is a lot of different understandings of branding. And there is probably the business school brand management explanation, which is not automatically how I would probably define it. Because for me, again, it's always just based on my experiences and based on the work that I have done. And that's what I'm interested in. Yeah. I mean, in general, I think branding, similar to product, is a very broad and a very central part of a business. There is a lot of overlap, right? Branding is like understanding your customers, understanding your market, understanding the audience. It ties strongly also in the overall company vision and the company values, where you're coming from, right? So a lot of these things, you're probably familiar with them simply in working on the product, right? Like, who are the clients? Who are you doing this for? What are we basing our company on? What are our values? Why are we doing it? How are we doing it? What is our value proposition? All these sort of things, right? So there is a lot of different angles that are very similar, but then just applied differently. And I think the most basic explanation of branding is, how should I put it? I think it's, think of it like the personality. Yeah. You know different people, right? Yeah. And for everyone, like, they obviously have a name. They obviously have like a certain way they present themselves, a certain way they talk. They all have like their values. I think it's, if I would have to put it extremely simple in a language that kids understand, I would say it's just the personality of a company or the person, the company itself. One of the first things that were coming to my mind was, I mean, actually the way a company serves a product is representing themselves to the outside of the world. That was something that was coming to my mind. And by the way, all the things that you mentioned, understanding your target group, your values and stuff like this, is a result that will be shown later on. This is like the kind of definition that I have. Yes, but still you need to think about it, right? Yeah, of course, of course. Everything that you do as a company, also like what you do on the product side or also what you do on the customer success side or in your sales side, has an immediate impact on the brand. And now I have a question. So like chicken and egg, where does it start? Where does it end? What comes first? It depends on the approach. Tell me more. I mean, first of all, I think it always starts with understanding the target audience, right? That is and will always be one of the most important things. Product-market fit discussion, right? Kind of. So you need to understand. Pretty much. Like you need to know who do you want to address? How do you want to address them? And I think then the first thing that everyone starting a company needs to think of is like, okay, what is now the name and what is the logo and so on and so forth. This is obviously a very tricky step because you should invest the time and money in doing it, ideally by getting professionals to do a good job, which you usually don't have at the beginning. So I feel like it's often natural that products don't always start with an extremely strong brand, which is also why we see, especially in the tech world, we see a lot of changing brands and we see a lot of rebrands also. Because the second you start changing and adjusting, and this perfectly ties into the conversation that we had last time also for Notion, the second you start changing your product or your audience and so on, it probably makes sense that you also adjust your brand to this. So Chicken Egg, I don't know, there are some companies that start off simply by having a great brand and then they build a product around it. You probably need to have a product and an understanding of who you're like really marketing to before you can come up with a good brand. And again, it always also comes back to can I have or can I even afford professionals to work on it, right? Because there it's more than just like picking a logo, a name and the color, which I think this is a little bit, unfortunately, the simplification that's in people's mind when they think of brands. This is a question I'm getting asked from a couple of friends as well, like, how do I define my colors? How do I design my social media appearance and stuff like that, right? And I was just thinking back when we started with the product bakery, because the first thing we did was, okay, why do we want to do this podcast? What is our intention? For whom are we doing this, right? So we had, I mean, of course we were sitting in the park eating burgers back then, as far as I remember. However, I mean, we had like a very clear definition of what we want to do, how we want to do and for whom we want to do that. And after that, I remember also like sitting down and then coming quickly up with the idea of product bakery, the logo, making like this 8-bit pixel croissant and stuff like this. But I think we were so fast in chipping the first version and also getting an understanding of how we want to call it, name it, frame it, because we had a clear understanding of what we want to do and for whom, right? So therefore, approach-wise, I can follow you. So I think we did it in a way that we got clarity on, yeah, again, what we want to do for whom and why. And based on that, it was much easier to iterate on the branding side, right? And of course, the podcast logo icon has changed once from our side. Yeah. But overall, I mean, the core brand as well as the core 8-bit pixel croissant is still there, right? It's in our DNA. Yeah. But I think what makes, like if we would talk about product bakery and if we would talk to someone of our listeners, I think it's what makes more of the brand is actually like the two of us, right? Awesome, guys. Because it's overall what people then connect with us. It's the way we talk. It's the way we communicate. It's the topics that we have, our approach to how we talk with each other and how we interview people. And this, like, really changes it because this can put you in a completely different corner of, like, the product of the podcast world, depending on how we approach it, right? Yeah. I think, like, we are kind of very casual, which is something I'm not sure if we knew that already from the beginning when we created product bakery. It was, like, also a little bit, yes, we... And now we can also then jump to some more, like, questions that everyone should ask themselves. I mean, we had, like, the history of how you became a product manager. At the same time, we were talking about how do you make a product. So there was an overlap with the bakery. So we could use something kind of visual. But then at the same time, it was like a quick and dirty... Start. Start that, I mean, is it a scalable brand that we now can, like, roll out to a shit ton of, like, different mediums and formats and so on? Probably not so much, right? Like, I don't know. I don't... I think product bakery has easily the potential to scale up. The potential, but also because it is so simple and we only had, like, initial concept and logo. Would I make an 8-bit poster ad campaign on billboards tomorrow? I don't know. But, okay, that's a good question. Absolutely. But I think maybe the magic lies in the fact that it is easy, right? I mean, we did it easy. We kept it easy and we're still trying to keep it easy. I think, I mean, please correct me if you see a difference, but I think, like, keeping the brand easy is also, like, a big strength of a brand, right? Absolutely. I mean, if you look at it and you don't understand it and you don't know what they're doing, it's a problem. But this is exactly now where some guidelines can come in place, right? Like, A, it's like, okay, and none of that is, like, set in stone because a lot of the companies out there don't follow this. But do you want to name it in a way that someone already understands what you do? Do you want to choose a logo that somehow explains what you do? And there are some examples that really do that. Others don't. Yeah. Thank you. Just because it's the easiest example, as always. Apple. Apple is a, it's a fucking fruit. The logo is a logo of a fruit, an apple with a bite in it, right? It doesn't tell you what they do. It doesn't tell you anything about the products that they have and so on. It's extremely simple. But it also means, I mean, by now where they have, like, a strong brand recognition, they can build everything. They can build an Apple car and so on because they have a really strong brand. Yeah. Right? And it's, it is a lot of that, like, most of the brands that we know. It's actually, like, oversimplifying it when you try to have a name that already explains what you do, which in our case can work, right? Tomorrow we probably can't build a rocket ship. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's, that's like one thing. Obviously, like, it should be simple. It should be memorable. It should work in different languages. So you should be able to, like, people shouldn't, shouldn't have to ask, oh, how do you write it? What was it? Because that's, I think, always difficult, especially then if you work in an international market. Think of when we worked at SumUp, strong market in Brazil. People there can't say SumUp. If the word ends with a P, they would say SumUp P. Yeah. Yeah. Then you start having the difficulty of, like, okay, how do people then write it? And you end up in this, oh, I need to explain my brand, which I was, so there, there are these, like, health factors that you need to put in. The second thing is, obviously, you want it to be easily recognizable. And this is like, you asked me, oh, how should I pick a color or how should I pick the logo? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's where the best thing is to start looking at, like, the market. What is the competition doing? How can you stand out? Do we want to fit in or do you want to do the opposite, right? Because, like, oh, I can take a space of, I don't know, most of the sustainability or insurance companies tend to go towards a more green direction. Okay. I can use that because it already represents the market. Or I say, no, I use something completely opposite so that I stand out from the masses and that people recognize me. That's amazing, right? I mean, this is, sorry, just to quickly interrupt you. I mean, this is very valuable knowledge to me. Approach-wise. Okay. I mean, it's… Just say, I just want to highlight that, right? I mean, yeah, there are multiple ways. For you, it sounds like your day-to-day business, but I'm like, okay, that's true. I can either go into a certain color frame where my competition is and maybe find a certain green that maybe separates myself a little bit from the other greens. Or I can just choose a completely different color to stand out in my industry. I think that's a very valuable approach to look at branding and to start also thinking about how you want to represent yourself and position yourself in the market. Yeah. And I think that understanding is really important, right? Because, like, you need to know who else is out there and what they do. And I think it's… And now we can almost go into the name, but there is some parallels also for colors and for everything else that they do. Think of naming a cat. If you're turning father in a few months or years, I don't know how hard you work on it. At one point, you will ask yourself the question, okay, how should I name my child? Are you going to pick a name that nobody can pronounce? Probably not. Are you going to pick the name that is the most common name in your friend group and just call your kid like everyone else? Probably not, because you want them or you want to be able that they can differentiate themselves with a name. Mohammed Lee. Mohammed is the most common first name and Lee the most common last name. So there you are. But that's the thing, right? Would you pick that? I still wonder how it happens, right? Because every year there is suddenly trends and people all name their kids with the same name, probably because they are easily influenced or they also don't do the research. I wouldn't want to name my kid. I wouldn't want to give my kid a name so then it goes to school and everyone else has the same name. And the same with Brandy. Yeah, but here's the thing. Before we go too much into making babies, just one question here. When it comes to personal branding, so let's say I'm a coach. I have many friends who are starting their own coaching businesses and they also always ask the question, okay, when it comes to my personal brand, how do I build that up? How do I represent myself? What are your thoughts when it comes to personal branding? I mean, personal branding by its nature should be easy, right? Because the personal branding is you. You are yourself. There is a name attached to it. There's an ideology, a personality attached to it. And that's basically like your personal brand. I feel like you probably also don't want to go out there as a coach or as a whatever and change who you are. I think that feels the most natural to me when I think of personal branding for a person. Actually, that also answers a little bit the question of coloring, right? Because if I'm representing myself, I should also pick the colors I feel comfortable with. Absolutely. I'm just explaining to myself. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Absolutely. I think so. And it's the same with personal brand. Also, how you dress can become part of your personal brand because that's what people recognize with you. I mean, probably people think of me, of Alex, and we are an audio-only podcast. So, sorry for all the listeners. But you all should take a look at Alex, right? The best-dressed man that I know. Italian style, Italian flavor. But that's the thing, right? Always wearing a nice shirt. Yes, we can argue we're best-dressed or whatever. But I definitely am very consistent in what I wear and the shirts and so on. That, at one point, became almost like my personal brand because it's a little bit like how I present myself. Now, if I would start forcing myself into wearing something that I don't like, that wouldn't work so well. It's like always when you start faking it. So, I think also companies struggle a lot when they then start changing their values into a completely different direction. Forever. It requires a massive change management. If you're Philip Morris, the company that sold cigarettes for hundreds of years successfully to the whole world, creating dependencies on tobacco, successfully marketing cigarettes. I mean, back then, they didn't know how bad it was. So, let's give them the benefit of the doubt. But then repositioning themselves and implementing the core mission and vision of a smoke-free world, that requires a lot of change. It requires for people in the company to rethink. It requires to change how every single person in the company operates, right? And we have the same thing in the automotive industry, right? Because many, many car companies are trying to make the switch to electric cars and you already see companies circling back. Yeah. Which, in my opinion, is a good thing, right? I mean, I'm not the biggest fan of electric cars. I mean, generally a good thing, but due to the current energy crisis and also sustainability, I'm not the biggest fan. But just a personal opinion here. However, I mean, you see Mercedes-Benz going back and saying, we're not entering fully into the electric market. Because the identity of Mercedes-Benz always has been fuel-based engines, right? And I can understand what you're saying, right? Because, I mean, sustainability is a very important topic. Nevertheless, you cannot easily make such a big change within the companies because you have hired thousands of people who believe in certain values and these values might get questioned by this new approach or this new branding. I would say you might even have to change some people. Yeah, exactly. Because you need to hire for that identity. Yeah. And so if you have such a fundamental change, you need to make sure that the people can adjust. And that's the same with you, right? Like if tomorrow I start forcing you to wear shirts and you don't feel comfortable with it, it is not you. So it's not something where you should think of your personal brand, of how do I talk, how do I present myself. I think personal brand is like, it's literally just your person. That's amazing. That's also, I mean, I'm going to share this podcast episode with my friends because I think this is very valuable and I know many people who are overthinking this. Yeah. Including myself. I was also asked, when I got asked the question, how would you approach that, you working with Alex, and I'm like, that's a tough question. I don't know. But honestly, now I can give better answers. I mean, you do need to think of, again, the audience that you want to reach. And I think what's maybe even more important when I'm just scrolling through my personal brand accounts on Instagram that I'm following, I think it's important to be consistent. Yes. Consistency is one of the most important things in branding. I mean, if I have one day with a shirt and another one with, I don't know, nothing on it. I don't know what kids doing these days. But that doesn't make sense at all. Yeah. I mean, consistency is important because you want people to then automatically say, oh, yeah, that's Christian. I mean, it's so crazy. Some people that are famous or that became famous, not even on purpose, and then at one point it obviously becomes a joke, but they all kept saying the same phrase at the beginning. There's a super famous guy in Italy who makes suits. And he has this super strong Italian accent when he speaks in English. And every video started with like, hello, everyone. I think that was such a crucial part of his success. Hey, I remember Salt Bae, this guy who was putting salt on steaks with his, letting the salt drop from his elbow. It's so stupid. That's personal brand. People remember that. Exactly. And that's why people say, oh, yeah, that's that guy. Do you even know what his name is? I mean, I know people know it. I know I get corrected sometimes. I mean, now we know his name. It's the salt guy. Yeah. Yeah. And you have a picture in your mind. And I think that's branding, right? And yes, if you want to, I don't know, if you're working in the health care segment, you probably shouldn't walk around and look like a homeless smoking three packs of cigarettes and having a yellow stained beard, right? That probably wouldn't represent what you're at the end trying to do and the field that you're trying to operate in. But it's probably also very hard for you then to completely change yourself. So I think like being natural is important. Obviously, understanding the segment, again, it comes back to the very start, is important. Having something that makes you recognizable and stand up, super important. But I would say nobody should try and change who they are. Also, not companies, right? I talked about personal brands, but also not companies. Just be your authentic self and make sure everyone in the company falls into that whole image because every single action at the end reflects back on the brand. Sounds like a good closing. Be consistent. Cool. I hope it helped. Yeah, to me it was very helpful. Thank you very much, Alex. All right, then I guess I'll see you in a week. Exactly. Have a good night. This was the Product Bakery. All links can be found in the podcast description and make sure to follow and subscribe for weekly episodes on all podcast platforms as well as YouTube.