Honest & Transparent Communication (Radical Honesty/Candor)

Alex, you have been on vacation, you left me completely alone at the product conference. I've been on work. We need to talk. Work? Oh, oh, oh, so you are too cool for vacation. Yeah, no, I just didn't want to use my holidays. I don't know, it's like I always have this thing of like saving my vacation days and then at the end of the year not being able to use them. Actually, we have a lot of American people listening in. Just a small reminder here in Europe and in Germany, we have 30 days of vacation. I have 28. You have 28? I think by law it's 25 and then if you're sticking around with the company you get more. The average in Germany is 30 as far as I know. Jesus, I need a job that gives me more vacation days that I then don't use because I save them and I work from my vacation. I think that's the point actually. No, I don't need a lot of them. If I think back when we worked together, I accumulated like I think 50 days of vacation. I had 15 as far as I remember when I left, or a little bit less, yeah. I had 50. Like I could have a nice sabbatical, yeah, yeah. Well, good that you're back still. I was just thinking, there is a topic that I was recently reading about and I remember you and I both read about it too in the past, which is the whole topic of radical candor or being honest, being direct, giving feedback, all this communication to be as transparent as possible. And I was just thinking to talk about it today because I just recently read the book Radical Honesty from Brad, I'm always saying the name, Branton, yeah, I think something like that. I need to link the book in the, Brad, Brad, Brad. It's not Brad like the bread you can eat, but I think you know what I mean. It would fit our product bakery team. Yeah, totally, right. Okay, so I just need to look it up again, but here it is, Brad Blanton PhD. And the book is about radical honesty, which is not the same thing as radical candor, but I was just thinking to talk about, first of all, being honest to people and how you approach it because you are right now having a team and I can imagine that you need to give and receive a lot of feedback in your current position. That's very true. I think honesty is important. I think there's also a limit to honesty, like I cannot always be fully honest. I think certain relationships need a bit of a facade, especially at work, right, where you need to collaborate with a lot of people. But I think that's definitely not the main point. That's just something that is on my mind when I think of like, the past years, where you obviously have to also kind of paint the picture, create a picture and so on. But I think when it comes to especially the point of like, feedback, working with people, having them also become better at what they do, I think that's where honesty is actually really important. And I think that's where a lot of people struggle with the honesty, because especially when communicating negative points, it's harder to be honest, right? I think we have the tendency that we don't want to hurt people. We want to make them feel good. I mean, a lot of people I know have that issue. Probably designers are a little bit more in the corner, because empathy is at their core. But yeah, I mean, I think the underlying problem is that by being nice and not communicating negative points, that's actually way more harmful than being direct and being honest about the things that didn't go well, or the things that could be improved, right? I think the construct of a company makes it generally harder, because you have like this hierarchies and rules and orders, right? But the next thing is, on top of that, as you said, right, I mean, you don't want to be always too honest, because it's sometimes also received maybe not in the way you want it to be received by the wrong people and things like that, right? Yeah, but I mean, I think when I'm saying that, and what I was mostly thinking on, it's like, I think there's a difference between private life and work, where in the professional world, you kind of need to keep the personal things aside, right? Like while I'm free to choose my friends and the people that I hang out with, like the fact that the two of us are having these conversations on a weekly basis, that's something that I am, that I'm doing out of my own choice and out of my own will, because I want to spend the time. In the professional environment, you won't always have the luxury of choosing that, right? So my work with a lot of different people, with a lot of different personalities, and where like, if I think again, it's like more about like this personal layer that you need to set aside and to be professional. But then I think once that barrier is crossed, honesty is extremely important, right? Like you need to be direct, transparent, and honest about the things that you think, because like also that's the only way to work through issues by addressing them directly, helping people grow by giving them honest feedback that helps them work on their problems, right? And I think one of the main takeaways that I keep carrying around with from the book of Radical Candor is finding this or making sure that the feedback comes from a place where you care, right? So I think it always comes down to the second you care, and you force yourself to give feedback from this position where you want to help that person, it's very helpful. If you don't care, it starts getting very toxic. And if you care, but you don't give the feedback, that's also getting toxic, right? So I think it's like always these two variables where you need to care for the other person and you need to have this mindset of growth and that we all grow by receiving feedback and by giving feedback, and then you need to be very honest also about things. And I think also it's very important to distinguish what kind of feedback you are talking about. I mean, there's like feedback on something very professional, right? For example, you are agreeing or disagreeing with the roadmap or something like that. And there's maybe personal feedback because you have had interactions that, for example, you didn't like, right? And something that I'm just recently learning by also practicing radical honesty in like a small coaching group with 10 people where we regularly trigger each other on purpose and learn to give each other feedback, I just learned that it's very important on how you phrase something you want to share, right? And also from which position, as you just mentioned. So I can say, hey, Alex, yesterday I was listening to your town hall presentation, I realized you mentioned you want to launch something in Q, whatever. And I don't agree with that. Can we talk about it? So that's one thing, right? But then there's another thing, which is, for example, you were sitting in a meeting and you were saying something that I took for some reason personally, right? And I think here, and it's something that is kind of connected to personal relationships that you also mentioned, because if you have a friend who says something stupid or you don't like, you say, hey, what's wrong with you, right? Why are you talking like that? Or shut up, you stupid, whatever, if you don't do this in business, right? But at the same time, talking like that, or like I just did, is also not the best way to express your feelings, right? And something that I've learned from Radical Honesty is a particular way to articulate how you feel with the least possible way to trigger someone else. For example, if you have said, I don't know, you don't like green t-shirts and I'm wearing a green t-shirt, I might feel offended, right? So I could say, hey, Alex, I think it's shit that you say this and you have no right to judge on other people's look. And I could make a big, big story out of it. And by the way, that's what we all do, right? We all create our stories and interpretation around what someone else says. But the way that I'm right now, as I said, experiencing and also practicing when I do coaching because as a coach, you're sometimes also getting triggered by people. So if any coach says, oh, no, I'm not getting triggered, I mean, he or she is lying. So how do you deal with that? And first of all, I think it is very important to deal with that, especially as a coach, especially as a leader. If you cannot take care of yourself, how do you want to help other people or how do you want to lead other people? So I think it's very important to share your anger, to share your sadness or whatever kind of feelings you have to the other person. And then the question is, how do you do this? And you can say, as I said, hey, Alex, I think you have no right to say something. Or you can say, Alex, I resent you for saying that you don't like green t-shirts. Because with that, I'm telling you how I feel because I am angry. I'm mad, Alex, I'm mad that you said X, Y, Z, right? And I'm not directly offending you by telling you, you don't have to do this because it leaves open, at least for you open to choose whether you take it or you're not taking it, right? But the moment I speak it out will help me release my emotions. Because that's what usually happens that people do something like that, right? Once they have said something, which is an emotional release and a release of the trigger that had been triggered. And communicating like that, so like with the message of I feel about that behavior. Because I could also say, Alex, I'm mad about you judging looks, right? But this is something general. If I would say, hey, Alex, you judging looks doesn't have a specific starting date or an end date. So with that, I can always be mad at you for judging looks. But if I say, hey, I'm mad that you just said you don't like green t-shirts, I'm very specific. I think, especially when it comes to giving feedback, people usually generalize the message. And that's a problem. Because by generalizing the message, you open up a lot of space for triggering in all directions. And I think in like, I mean, generally, and it ties into communication overall, right? Like it's very important to a try and be very clear. There's a ton of different frameworks, right? Like star or whatever, using the situation around it, giving the right context to communicate it to the people. Also like looking back, right? Like I could say, okay, when you were talking about this t-shirt, this can have x, y, z effect, right? I think it's important to like really communicate clearly, but also try to then understand if the message has been properly received, has been received, right? So I think like also there, even on the receiving side, right? Like trying to paraphrase and trying to understand, okay, is this, is what I am understanding actually the thing that has been communicated, right? Because as you said, in communication, we all have different perspectives, we all come from a different place. So it's also very easy that you are misunderstood, right? I think, oh my God. It's a two-way street. Too many times. I mean, I had it last week, I was in a meeting with, well, the R&D leadership, their company. And so since I joined the company, I'm probably the number one advocate to build an app, right? And I think, okay, we managed to get to the point that the leadership agreed that we had like the budget approvals that we have the team ready to start and to build an app. And so while we were talking about like, obviously the overall complexity of setting up our release pipeline and how long it takes and so on, there was one comment that I made. The comment was mostly around if there is a way to create value by launching some of the features first on a web platform, because we're faster there, I would do it. And I think the message should be fairly clear. It was completely misunderstood. And the conversation went into the fundamental question, if we should build an app. And before I was questioning if we should have an app, I'm like, Jesus Christ, that's like, the app is my fucking baby. That's the only thing I truly believe that it's important. Yes, for everyone. If you could see us, we need to start recording those calls, because like, then people can see the Italian touch you're bringing to this show. But so that's just the thing, right? Like I think between what you want to communicate and what could potentially be received, there is a lot of shades in between. And it is very important to properly communicate and to make sure it's well understood. And this is exactly what you said, right? I mean, it's a two way street at the end of the day. I think it's very important to be as clear as possible regarding the feedback that you want to give. And then at the same time also to double check as the receiver and ask, hey, this is what I've taken from you, or this is what I've understood, are we on the same page, right? Because if there's no consent on the message, you're not communicating at all. Yeah. And I think one thing that we should also never forget, which is a couple of steps before the communication actually, it's still about like also the culture, right? Like you need to have people that are willing to receive feedback. You need to have people that are open to get honest feedback, that want to grow, that want to take it, accept it and reflect on it. If you don't have that, it also won't work, right? So I think you generally need to make sure that your whole team and your whole company or organization has the right values, mindsets and culture in place and then you build on top of that. And I think it's extremely important that how to give feedback is something that you discuss with people, right? I think it's also, I'm trying to train my team to give me feedback the way I'm giving them feedback and the way they should give their reports feedback. And that's actually a good point, right? That you sit down as a team and raise the question, how do we want to give feedback? And also, and I think that's a very important step that every person thinks about the following question, how do I want to receive feedback? But also how do I want to be treated while I'm receiving feedback or giving feedback, right? I mean, it's like both ways. Super crucial communication fundamentals that should be discussed in order to avoid miscommunication. And one thing that we should also talk about, because I see that happening a lot of times and I think it's actually great that we represent both product and design. I think designers, because of their background and because of their nature of the work, which is very visual, they sometimes receive feedback that is not objective or that's not structured in the way another designer would give them feedback, which can be frustrating, can be misleading. I mean, I think it can have different negative effects, right? And I think like also there, it's extremely important to work with the other functions or as a function also to try to understand where the other person is coming from, to give them the feedback properly, right? And I mean, it can be guidelines for, if you have a design critique session with your product manager on how feedback should be phrased, it's on the designer also to make sure that they set the initial guardrails of like, okay, what exactly are we looking at and where do I want feedback so that I don't get feedback on the color of the button while we're discussing an overall structure of a flow. And like also for the other person or for the other function to try and understand how to communicate, right? I think, I mean, you can educate, but again, ideally the other person is also open. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the cultural aspect is the cultural aspect within the company and also within teams is in my opinion, a factor that needs to be considered. And I think, I mean, if you have like cross-functional teams, development teams, et cetera, the retrospective for example, is a great, great place to talk about communication or team meetings in design teams and product teams generally speaking are also great places. And I think as leaders, we have the responsibility to initiate and emphasize on having these conversations, right? To make sure that it also becomes part of the DNA and becomes part of the culture that people set the ground rules once they meet, once a new team is formed, once new team members are joining to make clear how they want to be talked to and how they have also the space to give feedback. And it's leading by example, right? I think like in whatever public forum, like if you can give honest feedback to your CEO and if he reacts positively to it, that will also get more and more people to upwards and downwards give honest feedback. And there is nothing better or nothing more productive than an environment where people, again, always coming from a place of like caring and want to develop and want to push for the better things, can be transparent, can be open and can give feedback to any person that they're interacting with, right? Not just the boss with his employees, especially like also the employees with the boss and the rest of the organization. And you said there's nothing better for the environment. Maybe we can break it down to there's nothing better for relationships, whether it's personal or professional. I mean, if you have a girlfriend, boyfriend, friend, BFF, whatever, you can openly talk to and have a great communication. I mean, how do you feel, right? I mean, it's like being on vacation if you meet with your best buddy and you can talk about everything, right, without being afraid of getting judged with a person who's listening to you, who shows respect, attention, gives you your attention and your time. So yeah, I think that's very valuable. And yeah, as you said, we need to live it by example. What a nice way to close the podcast. I couldn't agree more, Alex. Thank you so much for listening to me today. We will make sure that we link to books in the description. Yeah, definitely. And to stay in the loop with no more updates on product design and leadership, click follow and subscribe. With that said, have a great night, day, morning and goodbye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.