Struggling With Your Boss

Welcome to the Product Bakery Podcast. My name is Christian, I'm Alex, and together we present you the ingredients to build the right product. Christian, you won't believe what happened to me yesterday. Tell me. Okay, so, as a disclaimer, I'm probably not very big on data security. Well, how to put it? Let's say my credit card got cloned and my Amazon account got hacked multiple times in history. I got very good at detecting these cloning devices in ATMs, and also I never go to ATMs. As you know, I hate cash, so that's generally one thing. But I was almost, like, I almost got credit card fraud robbed by a 12-year-old guy in a park. How did you manage to do that? I don't know. The guy was smart. I mean, okay, so let me put the scene. So I was in a park with some co-workers. The small kid, okay, maybe he was 15 years old, whatever, but this small kid walks up to us and he has, like, a bag with different sweets and soft drinks. And he's like, hey, I'm currently collecting money for my school trip. Do you want to buy something? Everything is one euro. And I was like, well, sorry, I don't have cash. He was like, oh, yeah, I take cards, too. So you got curious. Man, that triggered me. I mean, I've worked with that. So for me, that was like, wow, okay, that's next level. So that's what I told him. I'm like, okay, for the fact that you accept card payments, I would take two things. I'm going to take a Coke and I'll take sweets. And then he's like, oh, yeah, let me get my card reader. Do you know, like, sum up? And, oh, my God, I was so happy to hear that. I was like, oh, this is so cute. This kid running around with probably the sum up device of their parents accepting card payments. So I take out the card. And then he takes out, like, this old phone. Man, it was like, you know, no touchscreen, like these button phones, like Nokia something. And he's like, oh, yeah, it's like, I have, like, this version of sum up for Nokia. And we both know that doesn't exist. Yeah, we both know it doesn't exist. In my mind, I was like, yeah, whatever, maybe it's some other solution. And then he takes my card and he starts, like, tapping the card onto this old Nokia phone. And I was like, okay, no, no, this is, there is something wrong. And then he's like, oh, no, it's not working. Wait, I can do it manually. And he starts writing down the credit card number. And does he, the number, oh, no. I mean, the second he started writing down the credit card number, I was like, no, no, no, no, no, you're not gonna fucking do that. That is my credit card. And he's like, oh, no, no, it works. It's sum up. It's sum up. I was like, I worked for sum up for four years. I can tell you what works and what doesn't. Get the, like, I mean, how, but I mean, I thought that was so creative. It was definitely smart. I don't know. I mean, I can almost see, like, entrepreneur spirit in there. I see criminal spirit in there, but I'm not sure what you're seeing right now. But okay. The line is blurry. The line is blurry. Yeah. So one question before you go ahead. So how did you deal with that situation? Did you do it classically by, like, punching him or what was, or calling the parents or the police? I kicked his balls. Took a bag of, like, cokes and lemonades and sweets and ran away. No, I didn't. Twist. Okay. No, I just took my card and I was like, get the fuck out of here. And the best thing, he was like, oh, yeah, but I mean, if you want, you can still pay cash. Okay. That is the entrepreneurial spirit you're talking about. Got it. I mean, this guy was so ice cold. Damn. Like, okay. Now I need to say the last thing that is probably a bit mean. And maybe I shouldn't put this on the Internet. But so when he first tried to tap the card on this Nokia phone, in my head, I was like, oh, my God. Maybe this poor bummer is, like, a little bit, I would say, slow in his thinking. And he sees this as a game. And I was imagining him, like, in his mind, say, like, beep beep. And then he hands me back the card and he's like, oh, yeah, I just got the payment. But no, he was just a criminal. What I still don't get is why you are handing over your card to a stranger. Man, honestly, if I think back, of course, that was so stupid. I should have punched him earlier. He should have punched you for that. But I don't know. I mean, this whole story. Yeah, it's weird. We were even doing, like, small talk as he was, like, taking out the phone. I was like, ah, okay, so where are you going with your class? And he was like, oh, yeah, we're going to a city in Poland and blah, blah, blah. And he was like, I did this already once. And I raised, like, money to buy a computer. And well, I mean, now I get it. I mean, with one single credit card, you can buy a computer. Yeah, sure. I mean, definitely with yours. I mean, come on, credit cards are credit cards. Well, that's a fun story. So to all our listeners, please learn from that story. There is no Nokia for sum up. There is no Nokia old phone in general that connects to card reader devices. No. And Nokia phones don't have NFC. True that. I mean, you can probably hack that. That would have been even worse. Like, when he holded the card on it, I was like, okay, maybe he's now skimming the card. Oh, yeah, sure. But he wasn't. I mean, I was thinking, should I block the card? I mean, I know banks are anyway quite nice. You can always tell them, no, this payment wasn't mine, so insurance pays. Like, I wasn't, like, freaking out. Worse things could have happened. I also lost my credit card in – or I left it proactively in a bank in Portugal because, like, the machine ate it and I had to catch the train. And the lady was like, oh, you need to wait 10 minutes. And I was like, okay, keep it. I want a new one. It's like, okay. But we already wasted a lot of time not talking about product. I mean, there is some product in there. Thanks for your openness and sharing a glimpse of your life. So let's get serious. What should we talk about? Let's get serious. Alex, I was recently following some of your LinkedIn conversations. And there was, like, one topic regarding changing leadership teams or if change of leadership teams in general is possible, which I found very interesting. Yeah. Let's chat about it. I remember that conversation. So, I mean, the general post of this person was – and I think he's, like, coaching PMs. He was saying, okay, when he talks to PMs and they, like, bring up that leadership isn't open for product processes and so on, usually he advises to just take the things and run. And I think, like, my challenge there, and I think it's actually quite interesting to discuss this, I mean, I think to some extent coming to an organization where product is simply not mature or maybe where you're the first PM or you're the first person to take a PM leadership role or maybe whoever did product before doesn't have, like, the maturity and the experience. But, like, if you come in and you have that experience, I would challenge and say, okay, it's up to you to try and change leadership and to influence that change. I would hope that that's also the reason why a company hires you. And while, I mean, we all know that that's sometimes not the case, I think you definitely need to invest some time to at least try to influence the change, be very proactive about it and make some noise, right? Not just, oh, yeah, leadership doesn't let me do what I want, I just leave. I mean, that sounded a little bit like trying to find something that in many cases doesn't exist. Well, I have to say my mind on that topic changed a lot also because of what you just have shared right now and also in the past with me. But I would look at it a little bit broader because the scenario you explained is not only related to product. We can look at this on a much broader level, right? Because whether it's marketing, HR or whatever, so if you are getting hired as a subject matter expert, right, you are hired for a reason. So, I mean, we could also argue that it's especially important before you start within a company to check how the leadership team works, right? But let's leave that out for now. So what happens after you have started your job? And I agree with you. First of all, it's important to highlight what is maybe not working. It's important to suggest new ideas, to try to establish changes. I mean, as a product manager, for example, working with a team, there is a lot of room and space to try out new things in new ways. So that's definitely a good starting point. But the thing I'm also kind of, yeah, struggle or used to struggle in the past is what is happening once you reach the point where change is not getting accepted or is almost for you impossible. But let's talk about that. When is that point? So exactly. I think that's something we need to look at and which is also very hard to find maybe from your own perspective as the person who is confronted with that issue. Is the problem the leadership team or is the problem you? And I would say generally or as a general rule that I apply at least to myself is I blame me. I think that's at least what helps me to then, okay, take a step back, not get like stuck in negativity of like, oh, yeah, nothing's possible and nobody's listening. Okay, probably I'm communicating the wrong way. That's why people are not listening. How can I change my communication? Well, from a psychotherapist point of view, I mean, I like a resource-based approach, which means every human being has the resources to solve their problems. If we take a look at this, there are multiple ways how you can solve that issue. You can solve that issue by, for example, changing your communication style or maybe suggest better changes, improvements, and what else, or alternatively realizing that you made a mistake by starting for the company in the first place because the leadership values are not in line with yours. And I'm purposely saying values because it's usually more than just declining ideas or not wanting to change, right? So there are belief systems behind it, ideologies, and much more. So there are multiple ways how you can look at it. But usually once we are faced with the problem that things are not going into the direction we would like to, we start blaming. Yeah. Others. Yeah. To add that, yeah. No, yeah. I think that's right. So, I mean, if we would have to break it down, right? The one thing that you mentioned, and I think this is a very good point, is the initial due diligence, right? I mean, I think it's important to look at, okay, what is there? What is the current setup in the organization? How are currently topics being prioritized? And what is the expectation of the organization when they bring you in? And I think this is where interviews need to be this conversation, right? I think a lot of times I see people being quite nervous in interviews. They want to land the job. They try to accept certain, I would say certain things that are being communicated in the interview process, right? Of like, oh, yeah, we usually gather priorities from the CEO, right? And people are, oh, okay, yeah, cool. Sounds like you have a very product-centric CEO. Amazing. I want to join this company. So, I think, obviously, taking this chance to really also dig deeper and probe more to understand, okay, how is the company doing things? Are they willing to change? That is the first step. Yeah. Secondly, like also looking for a culture that is open to change and willing to change, right? Because I think you can also join a company that has zero ideas of the product processes and that has zero ideas of user experience and research and user-centric approaches and problem versus solution thinking and so on and so forth. But if there is a willingness to change and to listen and to acknowledge that you hire an expert, then that's still a very good starting point, right? Yeah, absolutely. And I think also, I mean, I used to work as an employee. I'm working as a coach. And when I talk to people and when I talk to companies, you hear already within the conversation with the leadership team what's going on, right? If they say, hey, we have just changed our organizational model because the previous one was not working. In product and engineering, we started now establishing new processes. So you hear already out if there is change going on or not, right? And sometimes they just say, hey, we need to grow. That's it. And we have the strict structure of teams. And this team needs five people. This team needs eight people. Then you also hear, okay, maybe I should ask when the last time was where they have established new processes. For example, to figure out if there is an ongoing change on certain levels or not. Yes. But even without that, I mean, if I think very early in my career, the roles that I had, I didn't do a lot of property diligence. Neither did I. I didn't know a lot about their processes. I mean, let's also be honest, there wasn't also so many materials out there to learn of like, okay, what do I need to do in an interview? I was extremely underpaid, but I had a job, right? And I mean, one thing that I always did was I pissed off a lot of people. I never got fired, but I got almost fired in different roles. But I think then it always came back to certain relationships that I managed to build, trust that I managed to build with certain stakeholders or with specific people in leadership that then actually helped backing me up because I was able to show them, okay, what is the impact of making a certain change? I might have pissed off someone that was working on their own agenda, but then in the end, I mean, I was always trying to operate for the company's success. And I always tried to also vocalize and articulate what the benefits are of doing things differently. And I think this at the end was also where I then managed to step up into leadership because I was kind of challenging the status quo. I was like bringing in new ideas and I managed to find people to partner with, people who believed in the ideas and in the direction and then to team up with to kind of push it through. And then at the end, the company saw or I hope they saw some of the benefits. And I think that helped me also in my career to move forward. But I think it's also this, okay, things are not perfect. It will take a long time for things maybe to be perfect, but I cannot get stuck in the negativity or simply then drop the ball and be like, oh yeah, I'm out of here. It's the same thing like with a relationship. Yeah, a hundred percent. And here's the thing, I would like to share a story. And afterwards, I would like to ask a question coming back to the time aspect. But I was like, I think it was four or five years ago, I was at a Lean Summit conference where Eric Ries was a speaker, the author of Lean Startup. In the good old days where we could still meet in person. Exactly, exactly. I mean, now we're doing it again, right? Exactly, exactly. But here's the thing, I had the honor to be able to ask him a question because back then I was in the position where I got frustrated by not being able to establish any more change. So I asked him, hey, I have a problem, so I'm somehow not reaching any change and I'm feeling like blocked. So what should I do, Eric? I mean, I asked a really broad question. And the answer was, I mean, it was not the perfect answer, but it inspired me back then because he said, the first thing you do is you take one of my books and hit it against their head until they understand it, which I really like. But he said, here's the thing, if your boss, if your supervisor is not willing to see the thing you believe in and you have to believe in it and it must be hopefully something good, you should go to the next level. And if this next supervisor or leader doesn't accept it, you go to the next level. And if this doesn't work, you go to the fucking CEO. And if the CEO doesn't agree with you, pack your stuff and piss off. And honestly, it's also important when you are in a situation like I used to be, and by the way, I resigned a couple of months later, to make a decision. But the question here I want to ask you is, what is the right timeframe for that? And I know it's a tough question. I would say there probably is no right timeframe. And it's probably also a feeling that you get, right? I mean, there is toxic cultures, there is toxic people. We all left certain roles because of toxic people, right? I mean, no surprise all over LinkedIn, you say that people leave companies, people leave leaders, not their companies, or their managers, not their companies. And I think that is very true. So I think when you smell toxic environment, when you see that there is a lot of private agendas, personal agendas going on, people who definitely don't work on the good for the company, but on something that they want to push through, then maybe it's time to pack your stuff and leave. You can still try to bring these points up, to point it out clearly what's happening and why you're also considering to leave, right? I think if we talk about feedback cultures, both for feedback, both for employees, it should also be true for companies, right? You need to be candid and direct. If you're not, how should they know? And you can go up to the CEO in smaller companies if it allows. You can even do it in big companies. You can also do it in big companies. They all have an email and I think they all read it. It needs some balls, but I think it's kind of the last thing that I would try because what's the worst thing that could happen? Hey, you leave anyway, right? So at least you try to influence change considering that you're coming from a place where you care for the company and where you want the best. One important thing I would like to share is I always used to work for companies where the CEOs were reachable and something I've learned for myself and I'm looking back that I'm kind of regretting is not getting more in touch and more in contact with my CEO because at the end of the day, if you're spamming them, if they're getting bored by your emails, they will let you know. So that's just my two sentences. So looking back, I could have done more work upwards and more communication upwards. But there's one more thing that you mentioned that I really loved is you said there is not the right time, but there is this feeling. That's something that I believe in these days is more important than ever, which is connecting to your feelings, which are not coming out of your ego or your mind. It's coming out of your body. So take a deep breath, take some time in whichever position you as a listener are in right now and ask yourself, does it feel right or not? I think that's a very good starting point to evaluate whether it's time for a change in terms of changing the company or not. And usually we know the answer already. Yeah. And I think the other thing that I would definitely also remind people of, it's like, while the grass always looks greener outside, right, the other side of the fence. I'm just so bad with English. German too. Das Gras ist grüner. Whatever. Pretty much all the companies that I've seen and that I've talked to have very similar issues, right? And some are better at writing some great articles about how cool and fancy they do stuff. But bottom line, no company is perfect. All companies and all roles come with challenges. So whatever you do, don't expect to walk out and suddenly find this company where everything works perfectly and everything is going to be served to you on a silver platter. Change is part of our jobs. Influencing change, influencing people, that's all part of our jobs. Conflict too, by the way. The nature of every relationship is to have different opinions. The question is just how you deal with conflicts. The two of us also have different opinions and conflicts. Yeah, absolutely. I think design is useless. I have wireframes. I can do it myself. We should make an episode on that. So there was one more... You're going to burn in hell. I'm taking the burn, Alex. People will destroy you. You will destroy me. I think that's enough. But there's one more thing I just want to drop since we are on it right now. I think there are some companies who are doing a really good job. But these companies function in complete different ways that I think I haven't seen yet in the tech industry but in other industries. So the hashtag here is conscious leadership and I would like to pick that up next time. Let's do that. Great. So leave the follow button. Share with your friends. And tune in next time. Oh, and by the way, we've seen that all these platforms now have podcast rating options. Oh, yeah. Give us a rating. Leave us some starry stars. Yeah, in Spotify and Apple. We highly appreciate your support and your feedback. Cool. With that said, have a beautiful day. Bye-bye.