Wrapping up a remote year with tips for a better working routine

Welcome to this year's last episode of the Product Bakery Podcast. I'm Christian and I'm sitting here today with my co-host Alex on his lovely couch in Berlin, meeting in person again after a great Christmas time with our families and relatives. Hi Alex. Hi Christian. Somehow happy that this is the last episode of this year. It's time to wrap it up. It's time to start a new 2021. It's not the end though. No, it's not the end of Product Bakery, but hopefully the end of 2020 and let's hope that the new year is a little bit better. How was Christmas in these crazy times? Oh, I just gained 20 kilograms, a lot of food. I'm just happy to be back in Berlin. I love my family, don't get me wrong. But yeah, it's now time to find some rest and getting ready for the next year. As we discussed in the last episode, I started drafting and planning my next year. How about you? Yeah, obviously Christmas always means eating a lot. So I definitely gained a couple of kilos that I now need to get rid of with some detox. But I also have to say it was a special Christmas with all the travel restrictions, getting tests in order to get home. I didn't manage to stay with my girlfriend over Christmas. So yeah, obviously because you can't travel across regions. I think as we've seen also during the year, this was a very important year for all products and solutions like in the space of remote working, communication over distance, video calls. Zooming has probably become a word this year in the dictionary of the year. Yeah, let's jump on a Zoom call. I just saw in the Facebook group a picture that says the top five quotes that people bring up in a call like, you're muted. Can you hear me? Can you repeat you just broke up? Can you see my screen? It's my favorite one. Or let me share my screen. This is what you're always going to say, even though everyone knows you're going to share your screen. And my personal favorite is like, when you're jumping above that, when you don't even ask, can you see my screen? Because you're so confident that everyone can. I really love people that are very confident in those kind of remote calls. I was just thinking about something else when you said jumping, because you maybe also notice when you're running over time and you just say, I have to jump to another meeting. But how was it for you? I mean, do you live the, how do you, I think like in my company, they had a term that Zoom or the video call tiredness or something like that. How was it for you? Like to spend long days only talking with your screen? Yeah, I love to work with people in person. I still believe that sticky notes are a very good way to plan projects, interact with people. So doing everything remote is on one hand, really nice with the tools that are in place at the moment, like Miro or Avion or something like that. But overall, I got a little bit sick of it. And I really can't wait to get started beginning of next year to be more on site again and avoiding sitting in front of the screen. But I was also thinking about you in your role at Bain. How was it for you? Because you traveled a lot at the beginning of the year, as far as I remember, but you then needed to make the hard shift to fully remote, right? Yeah. And I can only speak about myself. So this is my personal opinion and it's not my company's opinion. It's always important to mention that as well. It's definitely very different because for me, the value that you get out of coffee chats, especially also when you start with a new client and when you have to build these relationships and when you also have to position yourself and make sure, you know, to also understand individual goals. It's very hard if you have scheduled meetings or if you have to do it over phone because like also the barrier to just like jump on a phone call and so on is tricky. I think there are some things that would highlight as positive, especially also in the work like of a designer. You mentioned tools like Miro. So let's call it digital whiteboarding tools and so on. I think that one was really a game changer for everything that's collaboration and brainstorming and so on. We've run workshops with hundreds of people, something that you could never do in a real room. And I think that's something like if you put enough preparation in a remote workshop, that can be super beneficial while obviously you have to also count in some time to rest. People get tired if they have to talk to a computer. You need to make sure that the attention stays high because obviously a lot of people love to check their emails, check their Instagram whatsoever. You have the biological rhythm that you also need to consider even in remote work. Yeah, absolutely. But workshops remotely is something that independently of what happens in the future is something that I would definitely consider doing because it's just so easy to jump on this whiteboard, to skip all the logistics and to collaborate and to also have well-documented output. And I think that's something like how often did it happen that you have a workshop and you have all these whiteboards and then you start like documenting by taking some pictures and so on and it ends on your phone in an email or something and you never look back at it. And this is the beauty of the digital things because they are there, you can always go back, you can always look at them, you can comment, you can mention people, you can follow up. That's something that I definitely liked. That's interesting because I also remember back then before you worked at Bain as consultant in your head of role managing your designers, you had also many people who were not physically in place actually across the whole globe. So what do you think are the top three tips you would share with aspiring designers or generally people working in design to bring the remote work to the next level and do a better or the best job as possible? I think it's not only designers. I was just thinking that you particularly can just say send some nice. Yeah, but I think one thing that I really loved is the fact of having that it's becoming easier to involve everyone and to not like only have this collaboration on design. Definitely one thing if we talk about design specifically, seeing tools moving more and more into the form of like progressive web apps where you can like constantly collaborate in real time and see what other people are doing. That is a game changer. And if I'm not mistaken, Sketch is trying to catch up on some of these things like with Figma. And to be honest, I'm not super sure on what Adobe XD is doing, but things like Figma in terms of not having the issue of a file being a snapshot that you need to save, that you need to version or something, but to really always have a live update and be able to work on a file simultaneously. And having the history, etc. Yeah. Yeah. So that's definitely great. While still and I'm thinking back, having the main office in Berlin and having designers in places like the extreme was Brazil, where literally like 15 flight hours away. I think people got used to talking over phone now, but I would still love to go back and have the opportunity to see my team every couple of months because the face time, the in-person time is just so valuable. And this is something I've been thinking a lot about all the companies that are going or that are already fully remote. And I've also just recently we had with clients and other companies that I've been talking to always this conversation of, oh yeah, we are giving people the opportunity to go remote, to work from wherever they want. And I think it can improve life quality because people are not stuck in a city or don't have to move into metropolitan areas, but they can like really live on the countryside or wherever they want. Life becomes much cheaper if you start moving away from the city and you can still do your job. But I personally, for myself, like when I'm trying to imagine me working like that, I'm not sure if that would be like the best for me. Like I only work with the interaction with people and the coffee chats that I mentioned, I think without exaggerating, but probably more than 50% of my career or where they are now, or my career is where it is now because of those coffee chats, because of having non-structured meetings, better understanding the people's needs and so on. This is exactly what brings us back to the whole communication we're talking about in our episodes, because the time you spend with people, the time you spend with people to connect, to have the personal interactions, to also have the empathy, to better understand what the motivations and the thoughts of people are, help you much more to really translate certain topics into whatever is needed for the moment, like a clear communication to stakeholders or a better concept that you just got out of the conversation and spending this time with people is so important. And something that I like though, in times of working remote is that in case you're going to have a one-on-one with someone, or in case you're going to meet with someone, the times on the other hand very, how can I say, intimate, because you're going to have a call that is one-by-one, that is scheduled on purpose to someone to talk to instead of just joining a group of people who are just drinking a coffee and then just catching up on some information. So it can be sometimes also really helpful to have this dedicated time with, for example, an executive or someone you can really use because it's in your calendar, you have blocked the time and you can use it to exchange a little bit more than you would do on the other hand while just drinking a quick coffee. But overall, my summary is clearly the holy grail is really talking to people and being connected all the time. And when I look back at my time as a product manager, I always benefit from talking to people across all the departments, no matter if it was support or HR or, sorry, I have to say people team these days, so that has changed. You get so many information that you can always put together and translate into your job as a product manager by just knowing, hey, okay, there is a team that is right now hiring new people and we will get support at some point. Or this stakeholder just mentioned that the sales team has issues here and there and you just know to whom to talk because you don't need to know the answer all the time, but just knowing who is the right person to talk to, especially in bigger organizations, is something that you can get out of conversations in person so well that I really love to be with people and enjoying the atmosphere. The atmosphere is definitely something that you don't have at home. But wouldn't you agree that if you say there is this intimacy about having this time scheduled, that this is something that you could and should do also in the real world? Yes, definitely. But I'm not sure what your experiences are, but you maybe also know that sometimes it's not possible to catch up with people because, for example, if we look at SumUp back then. Was it easier for you to get this time on remote? Sometimes, yes, but it depends also on the person you want to talk to because, for example, your boss is always sitting next to you and you eventually schedule less one-on-ones or meetings because he or she is just there. But when you go remote, okay, we need to change something. We cannot do it on the fly because our calendars are blocked now with more meetings than usual and now we have to find a slot that we regularly use to talk to each other. And it was actually the point that I meant, so do not get misunderstood. I think that also the communication increases with remote working. So you have to do way more one-on-one conversations. There are also many books and theories saying you should communicate as much as possible to groups instead of one-on-one. Instead of talking to your engineer or your designer one by one, rather do it in a chat that everyone can see what you're going to do and what you are deciding. And this is also one of my tips, by the way, if you want to improve your communication, try to be as open and transparent with it as possible and do it as much as possible in public channels, but don't spam. Yeah, and I think there's definitely a place for both sort of meetings and especially if you're in a managerial role and you're managing people, it's important to have the one-on-one time for, I would say, not to discuss topics like work-related topics, but to really make sure to also give them a space for private needs and their personal goals, something that they probably wouldn't share with a bigger group or audience. But speaking about that, one thing that I would be curious about is if you found some good routines also in working remote and to balance the screen time and working from your apartment. Yeah, waking up, doing a meditation, exercising. Really? Are you meditating, like honestly? Yeah, I do every day, 20 minutes. How can I not know that? We never talked about meditation. Okay, then let's talk about it. We talked about a Mediterranean food, maybe. Okay, that's interesting. I mean, I try to get a little bit into meditation. I have a friend and I think we're advertising too many apps and tools here. I'm just opening my phone to find the app that I used when I got started with meditation. Yeah, okay. Let's just mention it. Anyway, as you all know, we are never getting paid for it. Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ, there was something in the air. Bless myself. So Headspace, yeah, you just have it here. I used that one to get a little bit into it. I never built my own routine while I think it always helped me, for example, shut down in the evening. They just recently changed a little bit and they have different courses for different needs. They have this amazing wind down section when you go to bed. I tried these things, but I'm curious, how do you go about it now? Yeah, I just started with Headspace, as you mentioned, a couple of weeks, but then I realized I'm not able to reach the point where I'm focused on my breathing. So I just said, okay, what can I do? And you will laugh about it, but I just went to some, you know, Berlin is this like hipster area where alternatives... You might piss off people if you say that. Maybe we do that, but I think the target group that we're addressing is maybe not that religious about what we're saying here. I just went to a couple of meditation courses. I just pay five bucks and you just meditate with a group of people. And it helped me to better manifest meditation and to learn how it works. And then at some point I just realized it's so well, especially in the morning when you wake up, it's after brushing my teeth, it's the first thing that I'm doing. And yeah, the day just starts so relaxed and I'm much calmer. And especially when you have long days where you're all the time in calls and you're not even having lunch sometimes. It's so good because you just feel so strong and still focused. When do you wake up in the morning? You really want to know it today. Last episode we talked about routines, right? You can share it. I would be more interested in your credit card number. You notice anyway. So I wake up at six usually. I have to say these days now between Christmas and New Year's Eve, I'm sleeping longer, but I try to wake up at six. So I have some time for meditation, drinking a tea, reading a little bit. And as I said, I really do exercising in the morning, like three times a week. And then I'm ready for the day. And I said it, I think last episode already on such a day where you read and where you meditate and where you're going to do sports, you have done 50% of the stuff that you need to do over the day or that you want to do after work, outside work. And I try to go to bed not later than 11. But since I know that you are this night owl, so how's your routine? You wake up at 10 and jump directly to the first call from bed? Yeah, I'm definitely the opposite. On my last project, we had very early or for me early calls. So usually we would start at seven, or maximum half past seven in the morning. And that for me literally meant yeah, waking up and going brushing my teeth. And while preparing coffee, I'm already on my first call. And so pretty much, I'm a little bit the opposite. And my peak in creativity and for work is definitely in the evening. And that's crazy. Like for me, at around 9pm, it really peaks. Like from there on, I could work until 5am in the morning and have the throughput of three days. Are you drinking coffee late night? No, not really. No, no doping. So you just... No, literally like water. And it's probably my natural bio rhythm that's a little bit like fucked up, because I literally don't get tired. Like after 9 pm, I really need to also force myself into sleeping. Otherwise, I could simply just go the whole night. And I think that's, yeah, that's a little bit a different routine. But nevertheless, and I asked you also about the waking up time, because I read from so many like CEOs and so on, where I'm always wondering, like, how do they find the time to do all these things? Is it writing? Is it preparing some conferences, like having all the meetings in between? Maybe consulting different companies simultaneously? And usually there is, I would say there's like this pattern that you can see of people like waking up in the morning, doing meditation, and so on. And that's why, yeah, why I'm curious if you also see an impact on your productivity and output of a day. What I really like is if you look at the Fortune 500 companies, all the CEOs, they have one thing in common. Two thirds of the CEOs are or have been to military. And the other third of the people, they are doing martial arts. And what is or what has martial arts and being in the military in common? It's a lot about discipline. Discipline is what makes you successful. Inspiration doesn't make you successful. And motivation doesn't make you successful either. Because discipline means at the end of the day to do the stuff, even if you're not inspired or enlightened, or if you're not motivated, but you're just gonna do it because you have to do it and you stay true to yourself. And I think having this routine or developing a routine that fits to your needs is, for me, the most important thing. 6 a.m. is not the holy time, or going to bed at 5 a.m. in the morning. But you need to figure out what works best for you. And I think we both, we are changing and trying a lot. And I think that's the AGI way, because the human body changes, your rhythm changes. Constantly checking what feels good and what doesn't feel good is very important to progress on that scale. And I think that helps also a lot to be as productive as possible. And it's the same with work, right? So many people have also a work routine. The first thing they do in the morning is they wake up, they read emails. Second thing is check Slack. Then they have the first big block for an hour where they eat the frog. Last time we talked about eating the frog, right? Doing the thing you like the least or which is the hardest early in the morning. Did we talk about it? Because I just recently listened to the book of eating the frog. I'm not sure about the title. We did not talk about that book in particular. I was just mentioning that we talked about books. So yeah, eat that frog. Great book. I can recommend it, but you can also read the whole summary in a five-minute blog article. So do what you like doing the least or what is the hardest early in the morning. And coming back to what I was saying is having a routine is really important. If you do it every day different, your outcomes will be every day different. And I think if you want to stick to a, let's say, high performing in quotes or to a better performing performance is the wrong word. But if you want to increase, if you want to start progressing in your career and in the outputs you're producing, discipline and routine is very helpful. And I think speaking also about the frog in the morning, one thing that I started and that works quite well for me is like close every day by thinking of the first thing that I have to do in the morning. Because I think like in the morning, if I have to sit down and come up with what I'm doing first, that usually slows me down. And I can better think about my next day on the previous day. So I tend to try and program how my morning looks like. And we spoke about calendars as to-do lists. That's pretty much like how I then set up my morning. And then I know what I do first thing in the morning. And it also gives me more calm, let's say, when going to bed by knowing my next task and so on. I really love that. And there's also this studies out there that's saying that you should try to really put everything out of your head onto paper, into your calendar before you go to bed, because it really helps you to faster fall asleep and to sleep through the night. So that's a really good point. Talking about routine and progressing and improving on yourself and also hopefully on your product that you're working with. Alex, we also have to share a couple of updates from our side regarding our product bakery podcast. Yeah, so as we mentioned already in the last episode, we have some work going on. And with today, we launched a new section on our website where you can now find all the episodes. Also with a short recap of the episode itself in written form. So we are slowly going to update all the old episodes, but this will be the format that we will also follow for new ones. And one thing that has always been super important for us is feedback. So on the new website, we now also have a comment function so that you can comment on individual episodes. And you can also use this to directly interact with our speakers and to place your questions. Did I forget anything? Yeah, I love it. Absolutely. And also important to mention for us is, first of all, feel free to follow us on social media, like LinkedIn, Instagram and Twitter. And as you also mentioned, our newsletter is slowly growing and we would love to be closer connected to you via email. So feel free to sign up to our newsletter. We will from there on also start launching summaries of the episodes and make sure that you never miss any update from our side. Awesome. Then I think we can close this episode with a nice firework for New Year's Eve. And also mentioning that starting from next year, we're going to launch interviews again. The 7th of January, we're going to launch the next interview with Rory Madden from the UXDX. Stay tuned and let's celebrate. Bye guys. Bye bye.